Attack and Tumble

[TheGogmagog]

I take/took this to mean you can Tumble at half speed as part of your normal movement. So if your normal movement is 30, you can tumble 15 of those 30 feet.

I don't think you will find much support in that, take a look again at the quote. Half speed means the movement costs double. I don't see from that quote how you think moving half speed leaves you with half your movement. Do you rule the same for move silently or balance?

The debatable part is if you can split it up, tumble 5' (costing 10') move 10' and then tumble the last 5' (costing 10' again) to move out of a threatened square up to another creature with reach and then attack. Or if you either tumble or not. The question is if you tumble as part of a move action means your whole movement is tumbling, or if you only tumble through threatened squares (when you make a tumble check).

Keep in mind, I'm assuming you are taking an action and tumbling in the same round. If you want to spend the first move action to tumble 15', and your second move action to move 30' that would be ok.

(by the way, I meant 'you are wrong' as kidding on the square, not to be aggressive)

 

[Kalshane]

Although DC15 is a little to easy, we use one of the opposed tumble check variants, otherwise people get a total skill level of 14 in tumble (Dex, ranks and synergy bonus') and stop skilling it up.

Instead I think we use the reflex save option, where your tumble check becomes the reflex save difficulty, and if your opponent hits it, he gets to swing at you.

That's what we do for our games. (But if you don't make the initial DC they get a free whack anyway.)

We house rule that a successful Tumble check does not negate the AOO but allows you to add your ranks in the Tumble skill as a Dodge bonus to AC for the AOO. Our rogues and monks are still scared to Tumble against some nasty critters. (we use a similar house rule for concentration checks when casting defensively).

I see the Reflex save as a more of test of reaction time (can you take a swing before he rolls away) whereas the actual skill at hitting the person is determined by the attack roll for the AoO. I don't see a big problem with Tumble helping prevent most AOOs, since it doesn't have much of a use beyond that. It just shouldn't be automatic.

 

[Legildur]

I see the Reflex save as a more of test of reaction time (can you take a swing before he rolls away) whereas the actual skill at hitting the person is determined by the attack roll for the AoO. I don't see a big problem with Tumble helping prevent most AOOs, since it doesn't have much of a use beyond that. It just shouldn't be automatic.

It probably works fine, and I like it, but we've never used it. But I could forsee a situation where an opponent could have a substantial attack bonus and yet a really crappy Reflex save, particularly when compared with a decent Tumble check, you could quite quickly be facing impossible DCs. To my way of thinking, a high attack bonus reflects (among other things) an ability to react to or capitilise on opportunities. In our games, Rogues and Monks are still scared to tumble in against high CR creatures because it is risky.

Mind you, given that AOOs are (with the Combat Reflexes feat) governed by Dex bonus, I can see a certain logic in using the Reflex save method.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I don't think you will find much support in that, take a look again at the quote. Half speed means the movement costs double. I don't see from that quote how you think moving half speed leaves you with half your movement. Do you rule the same for move silently or balance?

I don't know. The more I read it, the more I seem to be getting something else out of the quote. Maybe I just have my game terms mixed up. Let me pick this apart one more time.

Tumble at one-half speed

If my Speed is 30, one-half of that is 15.

as part of normal movement

Not exactly sure what the definition of "normal movement" is, but I assume it means unhindered ground movement (as opposed to ground movement on rocky terrain, flying, swimming, burrowing, etc.). My unhindered ground movement is, again, 30 feet.

So it seems like I can Tumble 15 of those 30 feet ("part" of normal movement), and do the rest of my "normal movement" (the other "part" of my normal movement) the remainer of those 15 feet.

I probably didn't explain that too well... Oh well...

 

[shilsen]

I probably didn't explain that too well... Oh well...

I think you were quite clear about what you meant, but I (and it's safe to say most people) think you're wrong.

According to what you're suggesting, you can still cover 30 ft with a move, even while some of it is spent tumbling, when your speed is 30. In which case, where does half speed come in? If you were correct, the skill description would probably say, "You can tumble half your speed," and not "tumble at one-half speed" (and no, that's not the same).

Anyway, check the PHB glossary on "half speed". It says that when you are "restricted to moving at half speed, count each square moved as 2 squares." Applying that to tumble, when you move "at one-half speed", each square counts as 2 squares.

 

[Staffan]

I don't know. The more I read it, the more I seem to be getting something else out of the quote. Maybe I just have my game terms mixed up. Let me pick this apart one more time.

Tumble at one-half speed

If my Speed is 30, one-half of that is 15.

as part of normal movement

Not exactly sure what the definition of "normal movement" is, but I assume it means unhindered ground movement (as opposed to ground movement on rocky terrain, flying, swimming, burrowing, etc.). My unhindered ground movement is, again, 30 feet.

What I get out of it is:

* Normal movement: Tumbling doesn't require any special action, it's a modifier to the normal move action.
* Half speed: Each square of tumbling costs 2 squares of movement to enter (or 3 if moving diagonally). This is the same "half speed" as in "An entangled creature moves at half speed", "Blinded: The character cannot see. He [...] moves at half speed", "An exhausted character moves at half speed", and similar conditions. Or would you argue that you're on the edge of an entangle spell, that you can move 10 ft at "half speed" and then move the rest of your movement normally?

 

[Sidekick]

Sorry RigaMortus2, but I'm agreement with the RBDMs here - your interpretation is wrong.

When it comes to cost of movement, tumble works in exactly the same way as hide & move silently.

You move at 1/2 speed unless you take a minus to the skill.

Simple as.

I think Shilsen summed it up quite well.

 

[Vrecknidj]

What I get out of it is:

* Normal movement: Tumbling doesn't require any special action, it's a modifier to the normal move action.
* Half speed: Each square of tumbling costs 2 squares of movement to enter (or 3 if moving diagonally). This is the same "half speed" as in "An entangled creature moves at half speed", "Blinded: The character cannot see. He [...] moves at half speed", "An exhausted character moves at half speed", and similar conditions.

This is how we've always played it.

Dave

 

[LifebaneSoulshadow]

Tumble and that DC 15 check.

I used to be one of those that opposed tumble as written in the PHB. (preferring the variant some use involving an opposed attack roll)

Since then, I've rethought my ways. The only classes that get tumble as a 'class' skill are monk and rogue. The 2 classes that are d6 and d8 (lots less hps than a front line fighter with d10 or d12 hit points). They are also classes that typically need to be in melee range to do their dirty work.

Trust me when I say, it will break nothing, if you leave tumble as it is written in the PHB.


Other classes can take tumble (cross class) but they will always be inferior at it compared to a real rogue or monk.

The rogue and monk need tumble is it's written to survive and actually get into melee and in some cases get 'out' of melee when things go sour. (or repositioning while in threatened squares)

Where you run into trouble with tumble is when non rogue/monk classes start somehow getting it as a 'class' skill (thru the old cosmopolitan feat or such).


Besides, more often than not, dungeon floors (where they typically are adventuring) are uneven or rough (adds +2 to tumble check), often with multiple opponents (each adding +2 to the check) etc... There are often enough mitigating factors that make tumble more than just a DC 15 check.

 

[shilsen]

Trust me when I say, it will break nothing, if you leave tumble as it is written in the PHB.

Agreed. Especially if one remembers your point about...

Besides, more often than not, dungeon floors (where they typically are adventuring) are uneven or rough (adds +2 to tumble check), often with multiple opponents (each adding +2 to the check) etc... There are often enough mitigating factors that make tumble more than just a DC 15 check.

These are factors that many DMs often forget to use. Unless you're fighting inside a clean and uncluttered room, tumbling is usually going to have a few circumstance penalties to it. I have a scout in my game with a +15 to tumble, and he still blows a number of tumble checks regularly due to terrain and enemy presence. Sure, when he gets to +20 and higher he probably won't, but he'll be about 12th-3th lvl then and I'm fine with someone at that level not blowing the basic tumble checks, just as I'm fine with a high-enough level mage not blowing concentration checks.