Attacking Grappled Targets?

[dupes]

Hey everyone - looking for a little help. Do the 3.5 rules address anywhere the restrictions/penalties/mechanics/outcome of attacking a target that's grappling a friendly creature? How about just located "on" a friendly creature (think spider on your shoulder that someone swings a sword at)? I can't find anything in the books, FAQ, nothing.

Any help GREATLY appreciated (since this comes up a lot...and will again soon)!

 

[Oryan77]

Hey everyone - looking for a little help. Do the 3.5 rules address anywhere the restrictions/penalties/mechanics/outcome of attacking a target that's grappling a friendly creature? How about just located "on" a friendly creature (think spider on your shoulder that someone swings a sword at)? I can't find anything in the books, FAQ, nothing.

PHB pg 156 "Grappling Consequences": "No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)"

also

PHB pg 157 "If You're Pinned by an Opponent": "While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you."

BTW, might wanna change your text back to default. People can't read it if they are using the black theme.

 

[dupes]

PHB pg 156 "Grappling Consequences": "No Dexterity Bonus: You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if you have one) against opponents you aren’t grappling. (You can still use it against opponents you are grappling.)"

also

PHB pg 157 "If You're Pinned by an Opponent": "While you’re pinned, you take a –4 penalty to your AC against opponents other than the one pinning you."

BTW, might wanna change your text back to default. People can't read it if they are using the black theme.

Cool. I read those over some more. I guess what I'm looking for is, is there a chance that you hit your ally when attacking the enemy grappler? It appears so with ranged weapons, but how about with melee? And does it make a difference if you AREN'T grappling? For example - a spider (or stirge, or whatever small/tiny creature) jumps on your back - effectively occupying the same square - and your party wants to attack it. Is there a penalty to that attack? Is there a chance to hit your friend?

Sorry about the font - didn't realize I'd changed anything.

 

[Oryan77]

is there a chance that you hit your ally when attacking the enemy grappler? It appears so with ranged weapons, but how about with melee?

I don't think so. I personally wouldn't rule something like that. My motto is, K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid). The less rules I gotta worry about, the better. Especially with something as complicated as grappling. The game will already come to a halt when someone grapples. So I wouldn't worry about penalizing an attacker even more.

If it helps, think of it this way. Two guys are grappling, an ally wants to come and help his buddy out. Is that buddy gonna just start swinging wildly and hope he doesn't hit his friend? Or is he going to time his attack so he hits the guy he wants to hit? I don't think that would be difficult to do up close like that. I don't think there are any rules about accidentally hitting an ally with a melee or ranged weapon. Unless you use some sort of critical fumble chart. I say, don't make the grapple rules any more difficult than they already are, and just apply the normal dex penalty or -4 to AC penalty as the rules suggest.

And does it make a difference if you AREN'T grappling? For example - a spider (or stirge, or whatever small/tiny creature) jumps on your back - effectively occupying the same square - and your party wants to attack it. Is there a penalty to that attack? Is there a chance to hit your friend?

Usually, when a creature is making an attack that involves being on your body, it is a grapple. It may not always need to roll the grapple check though. Sometimes it just needs to make a touch attack. Like with the Stirge. It makes a touch attack and establishes a grapple that way without making an opposed grapple check. So your question about a penalty to attack is comes in by referencing the grapple rules (it loses its Dex bonus to AC). This is actually explained in the Stirge writeup.

A spider on your back is not grappling (unless it specifically makes a grapple attack). It is making a melee attack, but it occupies your square. So reference the rules about a creature attacking in your square.

I hope that helps clear things up.

 

[dupes]

A spider on your back is not grappling (unless it specifically makes a grapple attack). It is making a melee attack, but it occupies your square. So reference the rules about a creature attacking in your square.

I hope that helps clear things up.

Are there such rules? If you could point me their way that would be spectacular!

Thanks man.

 

[dupes]

I think the part that has me most messed up is the "example of play" in the DMG. They specifically talk about a spider landing on a character and making an attack from there, but then don't allow a melee attack to be made by any (other) character. I believe I located the same-square rules you are referencing, but they read very differently from the given example.

 

[Oryan77]

Are there such rules? If you could point me their way that would be spectacular!

Ah man, that's one that I'd have to look up myself since I'm not exactly sure where it was mentioned. So you may as well search for it. Try using http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm It might be mentioned with "attacking in an occupied square" or something along those lines.

I think the part that has me most messed up is the "example of play" in the DMG. They specifically talk about a spider landing on a character and making an attack from there, but then don't allow a melee attack to be made by any (other) character. I believe I located the same-square rules you are referencing, but they read very differently from the given example.

I'm not familiar with that description in the DMG. You'd have to give me a page number so I could see what you are talking about. Cause I'm a little unclear about what you are trying to figure out from that.

 

[dupes]

It's pages 8-10 in the DMG. A really good example of play that I make all of my new-new players read through at least once.

In that example, they have a spider drop down onto a character to make an attack (and they have said character make a grab at it to throw it off). The spider effectively ends it's turn in the same square as the character - which the rules (which I found using that search - thanks!) clearly state you can NOT do. So that's what's been giving me fits trying to figure out the proper mechanic.

The Stirge example makes sense - the MM entry states that it's attack results in a grapple, so to the grapple rules we go. How about something like the worms from a Spawn of Kyuss? Tiny, crawling ON you, but there's no wording about a grapple taking place. The rest of the party needs to target said worm, so according to what I'm reading, they can do so with ANY melee weapon at no penalty/chance of hitting the wrong target?

 

[Vegepygmy]

It's pages 8-10 in the DMG. A really good example of play that I make all of my new-new players read through at least once.

In that example, they have a spider drop down onto a character to make an attack (and they have said character make a grab at it to throw it off). The spider effectively ends it's turn in the same square as the character - which the rules (which I found using that search - thanks!) clearly state you can NOT do. So that's what's been giving me fits trying to figure out the proper mechanic.

As I recall, that example of play (in the 3.5 DMG) is essentially a modified copy of an example of play from either 1st or 2nd edition, and reflects an older style of "ad hoc DMing" that was once assumed to be understood as part of the game, but is no longer as common.

Back then, DMs felt quite free to describe giant spiders "dropping onto" PCs and attacking them without necessarily treating it as an attempt to grapple, and if the player said that his character's response would be to "grab it and throw it on the ground," the DM would similarly not feel obligated to consult the grappling rules to resolve the action; he'd just call for an attack roll and announce the action's success or failure based on the result of that roll.

If you came to the hobby later in its history, it's totally understandable why the 3.5 example of play is confusing to you, however. While nothing in the 3rd edition actually suggests DMs slavishly adhere to the rules as written, the much more comprehensive, internally consistent rules of that edition (as compared to its predecessors) do seem to have led many to believe that there must be a printed rule somewhere in the book for any given situation, and that a "good DM" must abide by those printed rules.

But really, I think the example of play is just trying to show that a good DM relies on common sense to make informed judgments, and doesn't slow the game down by consulting the rules on every fiddly issue.

 

[Greenfield]

Size makes a difference.

Small and Medium creatures have a normal reach of 5 feet, meaning into an adjacent square. Tiny creatures (and smaller, I presume) have a shorter reach, 2.5 feet in the case of Tiny, so they have to enter the same square as the opponent in order to attack at all.

So if the spider is tiny, there is absolutely no rule conflict with it attacking the character they dropped on.

Also look in the section on moving through a square. While not completely on topic, it does address creatures with three or more size category differences. (It also says the Spider can't end its movement in the same square as its target, so apply some common sense.)