Attracting new people to gaming -- ideas and strategies

[Drkfathr1]

Exactly.

That's why I feel it's ultimately in the hands of Hasbro/WOTC to promote the game.

 

[DonTadow]

I have to agree with two earlier suggestions, a cartoon and new entry level products.

Once upon a time I would have thought putting a D&D cartoon on cartoon network next to Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon was blasphemous and unnecessary. Now, I don't know if the Pokemon cartoon was popular because of the CCG, or if the CCG gained in popularity because of the cartoon (not really a CCG historian). I have, however, seen kids get into Pokemon after watching the shows. Kids are imagination-powered robots, they thrive on fantastic ideas and "let's pretend" type games. Give the kids a show with lots of fantasy, kid protagonists, humor, and and the usual messages about overcoming odds and you will have kids beating a path to pick up D&D so they can get in on this world. Kids want to be heroes. Why do so many say fireman or police officer or nurse or doctor when asked what they want to be? These are heroes in our society, and that has great appeal to children.

Secondly, while the Basic D&D box was a creditable first step, it really can't be the gateway product WotC wants it to be. One of these reasons is cost. Yes, the basic set is reasonably priced. In fact, it is a steal with all the tiles and minis in there. That is part of the problem. If a kid plays through the boxed set's materials (about two weeks worth, really. Remember how much time you have for things like this when you are a kid?) and wants to continue, they are pointed to the PHB. The PHB is $30 on most store shelves, more expensive than the basic box. And while we all know that you could play a game for awhile with just the PHB, how many kids are going to be satisfied with that? In their introduction there were monsters, magic items, traps, minis, map cards, dice and premade characters.
It seems like a huge step between the two, and could easily put a lot of eager kids off. (warning! anecdotal experience ahead!) I gave my nephew a copy of the basic set for Christmas this year, and played through most of the adventures in it over a few days with various family members joining in. We had a blast. My nephew subsequently took the game to his friends and they enjoyed it, for a couple of weeks, then the material petered out and they returned to Yu-Gi-Oh. Their excitement over the game was still there, though. My nephew asks about playing D&D when I come to visit. And last month, while visiting, he and I sat down to play. Admirably, he and his friends created all sorts of ideas for new things for the game. Unfortunately, they didn't have the structure to build it on, so they resorted to Yu-gi-oh types of "attack" and "defense" and summoning, etc. It really didn't work with the game (and damned if I didn't try to accomodate it). I showed him my PHB, to see if that would be a likely next gift to give. He was bewildered. Too much rules and not enough of the exciting stuff, like monsters and adventures. The old red set had it right. It gave the tools up front to make your own characters, provided all you needed to become a DM and create adventures. Mostly, it was a well pared-down set of rules that gave all the fun of playing AND creating. The new set misses the creative aspect of the game. Sure, it gives some rudimentary rules on character creation and adventure design, but with such limited scope as to limit more than promote imaginative work.

OK, long post, my apologies. To sum up: Cartoon=good, Robust intro product suited for younger audiences=good.

Having hte joy of living and raising a child, its the cartoon. Cartoons bring offstream concepts to the mainstream. It was suddenly cool to play pokemon and yuigiio (which i hate both.) I tried to teach the little one how to play Magic: the gathering and he scoffed because he couldnt realte to the characters. But you throw yu-gio out there and he was all in. The kid couldn't even add or subtract (why in the world do they use huge numbers in yugio anyway if its a kids game).

D and D doesnt need more software, dvds or interpromotional tie ins (However i do think all of these are good ideas its not the problem), because only WE would buy these things. If you recall Hasbro attempted to sell a dungeons and dragons clue tie in a couple of years ago that did not have a high sales rate. Lets say I, a monopoly game collector of 110 sets, did not look foward to the dungeons and dragons monopoly game.

The problem with getting dungeons and dragons and making it big is to clear up the mythed steriotypes that only outcasts play, which has lasted for decades. But if cartoons can make tcgs cool after 10 years, they can make rpgs cool after 30. The bad thing is Hasbro is late on the ball. Pay Rowling what she wants (the real problem i'm betting) and get the rights to harry potter. Promote a heck of a lot of commercials about how now you can be harry potter. Get some really simple d20 rules, basic set stuff. And sell sell sell sell sell.

If plan A doesnt work, you'll have to make your own brand, create a saturday morning cartoon and get at least three years worth of shows. Make good characters (steal from anime as usual), and call it a different name that children can spell (dungeons is a big person word). The key is to have the children in the cartoon appear like real life children but with type of power, they stumble on some magic source of tomes that lalows them to warp into the mighty ranger, the powerful wizard ect. Make sure to put the spells and such that are in the book in the game (meaning you already need to havethe proudct ready to go by the time the cartoon works). When they read the book they go to this mystical world whose fate has implications on their world, in the mean time the adventures they go on have indirect moral impacts on their lives. Also make the kids look cool. Put some math and competitin in it. Add up the XP on the cartoon, but makesure it offers teamwork.

I know a lot of us would hate it,m but kids would eat it up as they look for something . different.

 

[jmucchiello]

The problem with getting dungeons and dragons and making it big is to clear up the mythed steriotypes that only outcasts play, which has lasted for decades.

No, the first problem is to get people to understand that D&D exists and that it is a cooperative game. More people probably have never heard of D&D than the number who have misconceptions about D&D. This is the reason why the D&D DVD idea is a good one, just too expensive to do.

But if cartoons can make tcgs cool after 10 years, they can make rpgs cool after 30. The bad thing is Hasbro is late on the ball. Pay Rowling what she wants (the real problem i'm betting) and get the rights to harry potter. Promote a heck of a lot of commercials about how now you can be harry potter. Get some really simple d20 rules, basic set stuff. And sell sell sell sell sell.

First, tcgs were always cool. Pokemon was big only a few years after mtg came out. It didn't take 10 years. And Hasbro bought WotC to get the Pokemon money.

Second, the harry potter tcg did not fair so well that I'm aware off. Do they still make it? Also, HP doesn't translate to D&D very well. I also doubt that quiddich translates to RPGs very well since the appearance of the snitch is just a Deux ex Machina kind of thing in the stories.

Third, I don't think Rowling is interested in money first. I think first she wants to control HP. Once she finishes her series, she will probably be more open to HP products where someone else writes the story.

The key is to have the children in the cartoon appear like real life children but with type of power, they stumble on some magic source of tomes that lalows them to warp into the mighty ranger, the powerful wizard ect.

Wasn't the original cartoon something like this? And panned because you don't play yourself in RPGs?

I know a lot of us would hate it,m but kids would eat it up as they look for something . different.

You said it should be like anime and stuff they already know and yet it's also somehow different? I don't get it.

 

[stevelabny]

GAH. If there's one thing I know, its that D&D does not work on film (or audio).
There is way too much "down time" in between actions for it to ever flow well enough to be interesting to just about anyone who isn't playing. Sure, it might be fun as a one-time novelty,but thats about it.

Many gamers will not watch other gamers play on video or listen to their games on audio.

And its not just RPGs. I asked the fantasy baseball message board I hang out on if they would be interested in watching or listening to a draft. These same guys will read countless mock drafts and scour messageboards to prepare. They say that draft day is the most exciting day of the year. And, every response I got said that they had no interest in watching or listening to a draft. (Which baffled me, as I think watching one entertaining draft could be fun or insightful.)

There are two main problems when trying to attract new people to gaming.

1> If I had search capability, I would link you to all the gamers-in-the-closet threads. There are PLENTY of gamers who are apparently too embarassed by themselves to admit to anyone that they play. They hide it from friends, family, and love interests. If they can't admit it to people, and only play in dark corners, how will they ever recruit people?

2> Advertising. The same reason nobody reads comic books anymore. When you only advertise to people who already buy your products, you have a severe problem. With no cartoon, no commercials, no Satan worshipping scandal, and I believe until the minis, no presence in Toys R US, there is no way for people not already in the hobby to find their way in.

M:TG followed by 3E and DDM have done what they can to get fringe geeks interested by bringing them into stores and piquing their interest. The LOTR movies probably helped a little too, and would've helped more if only you could admit to your other friends that you play RPGs.

 

[Tinner]

The key is to have the children in the cartoon appear like real life children but with type of power, they stumble on some magic source of tomes that lalows them to warp into the mighty ranger, the powerful wizard ect.

Ugh. You had me until you added this.
This scheme does NOT play well to kids.
Kids don't want to see normal kids who sometimes get to be heroes. That want to see normal-ish kids that ARE heroes.

Look at both your examples - Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh.
Ash isn't a real world boy who finds a magic poke-ball that takes him to poke-land. He is a native to the poke-world.
Yu-Gi isn't a real world boy who somehow gets to play in these life-or-death duels. He lives in that world. He has this "other Yu-Gi" inside him that guides him.

When you throw in that whole "normal kid who is sometimes a hero in a make believe land that he sometimes gets to go to" there's an immediate disconnect for viewers.

Look at it this way. Kids don't pretend to be kids pretending to be Superman, right? They just pretend to be Superman.

Lest I get too far off topic though, a cartoon is a great idea! WotC could easily use their Knights of the Silver Dragon line for a D&D cartoon.
But they will need to cross promote the line. Pokemon was huge because it was everywhere, cards, games, clothes, etc. You couldn't escape it, and more importantly, kids felt like they were missing out on something if they didn't get in on it.

"All the cool kids are doing it." is a powerful marketing strategy. I think they technically define it as "creating a sense of impending loss."

How can WotC give potential gamers a "sense of impending loss" if they don't participate in gaming?

 

[nothing to see here]

I dont know if you guys know a cool marketing story about how a company (I think it was Wal Mart) studying its database realised that a good number of the people that went to buy beer also bought diapers. So they started displaying diapers together with beer to enchance sales. So I think they should do something similar with RPG products. Put some D20s inside the Cereal Box, a battlemat attached to a 12 pack of beer, a DM screen inside a Playboy magazine, a Planescape novel together with some Mountain Dew and a Monster Manual together with the Cheetos.

If this kind of thing interests you there is a gentleman with the easy to remember name of Paco Underhill who is widely regarded as the leading (North American) expert on consumer behaviour in retail environment. The beer-diaper thing is exactly his kind of speciality. He's consulted for wal-mart and has several books out -- stimulating stuff.

 

[nothing to see here]

Maybe I'm being pessimistic today, but I think one of the fundamental reasons things like CCGs and Minis Games are bigger sellers than RPGs is because their basic make-up pits one player vs. the other. Somebody wins, somebody loses; somebody gets to feel superior to somebody else ... with RPGs you don't really get that. There's the good feelings of having a good time, of overcoming adversity and coming together with people you like to enjoy a common past-time.

--fje

That's one of the best points I've read on these boards in a long time. Is the co-operative nature of the game a marketing hinderance? I don't know but it's food for thought. Thanks!

 

[Tinner]

That's one of the best points I've read on these boards in a long time. Is the co-operative nature of the game a marketing hinderance? I don't know but it's food for thought. Thanks!

That's an excellent point.
So could a variant of D&D be the key here? Something more along the lines of X-Crawl?
Add in a PvP mechanism, and you might be looking at a winner.
Combine that with some computer generated graphics displaying a play by play, mix in some good action commentary and you might have a winner.

 

[DonTadow]

No, the first problem is to get people to understand that D&D exists and that it is a cooperative game. More people probably have never heard of D&D than the number who have misconceptions about D&D. This is the reason why the D&D DVD idea is a good one, just too expensive to do.
First, tcgs were always cool. Pokemon was big only a few years after mtg came out. It didn't take 10 years. And Hasbro bought WotC to get the Pokemon money.

Second, the harry potter tcg did not fair so well that I'm aware off. Do they still make it? Also, HP doesn't translate to D&D very well. I also doubt that quiddich translates to RPGs very well since the appearance of the snitch is just a Deux ex Machina kind of thing in the stories.

Third, I don't think Rowling is interested in money first. I think first she wants to control HP. Once she finishes her series, she will probably be more open to HP products where someone else writes the story.
Wasn't the original cartoon something like this? And panned because you don't play yourself in RPGs?
You said it should be like anime and stuff they already know and yet it's also somehow different? I don't get it.

It might have been cool among rpgers but I didn't hear about the tcg fad until the commercials ( tcg came before rpgs for me). I think we have a difference of definitions of mainstream. I knew dungeons and dragons existed before I started gaming. Everyone I talked to pretty much knows it exists. I don't think in 30 years it has "laid low". The problem is people think its for geeks, nerds and outcasts. At least that is the first impresssion suggested until i properly introduce them.

The DVD might work for people already somewhat interested in the game, but how do they get intersted in the game to buy the book, to get the dvd and watch it? IN all honesty there's a really easy dungeons and dragons tutorial online that does similar to what you're sugesting right on wizards website. But non-gamers aren't going to be much interested in it because right now d and d doesnt interest them. The dvd concept misses the point ofthe problem, dungeons and dragons isn't not known or hard to learn, its just really really really not cool or interesting to the mainstream person. I know we all love our hobby, but outside of our circles the first impression is usually not a good one.

Even as I wrote the concept for the cartoon, I hated it, which made me love it. This cartoon is not meant for me, does anyone watch yu-gio or pokemon or beyblades or any of the multimillion dollar industry cartoons? this is the concept. This is essentially the story and plot for all of them. The cartoons are built as 30 minute informacials. I dont think the orignal cartoon was anything like hte current crop of kids cartoons nor built to marketing anything.

The idea is to get the kids playing out the characters in their real life. Coll perhaps we scratch the real world idea and put them in the world of (insert here) they start off as level 1 commoners and as they gain levels we can watch them as they "level" and learn new abilities. Along the way they meet villians and friends whom stats are presented shortly before their introduction. I"m not a cartoon writer, but the concept is to build a cartoon that is essentially a sales pitch every episode.

 

[francisca]

Dungeon Majesty, with attractive, charismatic "real" roleplayers around the table cut together with big-budget, well acted "reenactments" of what happens in game - the actors in the in-game segments should be *different people* than the ones around the table. It would work. Imagine a guy like Seth from the OC rolling some dice, describing his actions well, talking in character, flirting with the girl playing the elf, then it cuts to Viggo Mortenson and a bunch of LotR standard orcs fighting it out. Teh win, if you will.

SIDETRACK

I showed DungeonMajesty to my wife back in January, before we started our current campaign. She said, "I need a better name for my character." She came up with "Castratia Balzak". The other part members (all male) kinda tow the line around her.....

/SIDETRACK