Auto-failure on a Nat 1/Auto-success on a Nat 20 - How Often Does This Come Up?

[molonel]

The two areas where I see it impact the game is (a) high level combat, and (b) saving throws. It's not uncommon for people's primary saving throw to easily outpace any non-twinked DC on a saving throw at mid-levels. That makes saving throws into a game of 1s, or something that feels not entirely unlike Russian Roulette: clickclickclickclickBOOM!

 

[FireLance]

Yesterday, I had 8 Orc Archers firing at the PCs with Rapid-shot; they got 3 attacks per round, and normally needed natural 20s to hit. As the party were being delayed by flesh golems, I got about 4 rounds off - so 96 attacks, or about 5.3 natural 20s.

Definite difference in playstyles here. I would much rather have half the number of orcs, but with enough levels to hit on a 16 with their best attack, or one quarter the number of orcs with enough levels to hit on a 12 with their best attack. I think I prefer a higher level of tension per die rolled.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Last night our party (~10th level) fought an appropriate CR earth elemental, and most of its attacks would only miss on a 1. In a dozen rounds of combat it rolled a 1 twice.

On one occasion a PC that was hit by its Awesome Blow rolled a 20 for his reflex save, and made an otherwise unattainable save (DC 32 or something for the fighter).

So even for level-appropriate challenges it can come up; As S'mon says though, it is exceptionally important when a particular challenge is composed of a large number of lower CR foes (to make up the appropriate EL).

Cheers

 

[RFisher]

Nat-1/nat-20 comes up about 10% of the time, of course. (^_~)

It's not unusual IME to have a relatively low HD participant in a combat. The PCs may have some low level NPCs (non-adventuring types) travelling with them. The PCs may be intervening between some monsters & their commoner prey. That sort of thing.

 

[drothgery]

In our 14th level party, our fighter/barbarian runs into 'only can miss on a 1' situations all the time. Between high levels, high str, rage, feats, and magic weapons there's a lot that's a threat to the party, but she can hit pretty easily. When my (late) bard threw out a +1 and extra attack from haste, +4 from inspire courage, and +3 from inspire greatness (and this was his normal strategy), it came up even more often. Our cleric keeps falling victim to failing saves that he can only fail on a natural 1 (though I think on the spell that killed him and my bard -- where I rolled a natural 2 -- he probably could have rolled a 5 and still died).

And occasionally we run into highly defensive and/or buffed up bad guys; until they're debuffed, it's sometimes the case that no one except the fighter/barbarian (and sometimes the soulknife) can hit the guy on less than a 20.

 

[diaglo]

are you talking about saves only?


what about the lvl 1 thief doing a search check on a magically trapped door/chest/whatever?

lvl 1 4 ranks in search max. plus maybe a point or two from stat. plus...say a couple more from a feat or race. so like +8 ... what's the DC on a 1st lvl magic trap?
edit: say he only had the +6. so DC 26 = needing the nat 20 to succeed.

 

[RFisher]

what about the lvl 1 thief doing a search check on a magically trapped door/chest/whatever?

By the book--IIRC--nat-1 & nat-20 aren't auto-fail/auto-suceed for skill checks.

 

[diaglo]

By the book--IIRC--nat-1 & nat-20 aren't auto-fail/auto-suceed for skill checks.

yeah, i know. i was curious if Firelance meant combat and saves only

edit: in the DMG they had the optional -/+10 to skill checks for nat 1/20

 

[Dragon Snack]

I believe groups of lower CR creatures are just as "level appropriate" as equal CR creatures, so yes, it comes up quite often...

However, it also comes up even in "level appropriate" encounters.

The 9th lvl Barbarian IMC could only miss on a 1 to attack the CR 8 T-Rex, said T-Rex could also only miss the Barbarian on a 1.

The dreaded 1 comes up quite frequently in my group. Enough that I try to avoid making them roll Massive Damage Saves. In fact, the Barbarian has Close Quarters Fighting, he rolled that 1 last night against the T-Rex, got himself swallowed...

I have players who like to max out their AC as well, so a lot of "level appropriate" opponents need to roll 20s to hit.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

However, there's the other aspect of the question: how would the game change if the characters couldn't automatically succeed on a natural 20, and wouldn't automatically fail on a natural 1? What if the orc archers had no chance of hitting your AC 20 dwarf at all? What if your PCs could automatically hit with certain attacks? How would this change the game?

Mouseferatu mentioned that it prevented the PCs from getting too cocky. Why is this a bad thing?

Because a large number of piddly guards or orcs or whatever should still make the heroes hesitate.

Because in my mind there should always be the chance for the kid with a bow to get lucky and put an arrow right into the eye slot of a helmet.

Because otherwise high-level villans would never fear for their lives in a rise of the masses. "Oh crap, the peasants are revolting again. They are going to kill a bunch of my lackeys. Captain, tell the guards to run, I'll go take care of them all myself. How many this month? 10,000? I'll be back in a few hours, have dinner ready for me."