Avenger, the headache class?

[FurryFighter]

I'm not exactly what the OP meant by 'headache.' My personal opinion of the avenger is that it is cool in that it appears to play quite differently than many other strikers. I haven't seen one in action, so I cannot say how effective it is. My impression is that it is used more to attack softer targets at the back rather than big tanks up front. The Censure of Persuit appears to be designed to make life difficult for ranged attackers. Censure of Retribution is designed to discourage enemies from attacking you as you get to your soft target. Censure of Unity appears to be designed for tough big bosses like elites and solos after cleaning everything else out.

I can see why Censures may not appear attractive. They depend on enemy actions. The point is that they are designed to discourage some enemy actions much like the defender's marking ability. You may not trigger damage from Divine Challenge or attacks from Combat Challenge, but you are still doing your job as a defender if you prevent enemies from attacking allies. The point is that you want a certain behaviour from your enemies and if they do not trigger the punishment, then they did what you want the to do in the first place.

Exactly. A defender makes the choice of enemies into "attack me or suffer consequences".

An Avenger makes the choice of enemies into "stay away from me or suffer the conequences, unless you're the one that will get damaged by moving away from me".

I'd think thats a perfect thing for a striker.

its just like chess. you force enemies to move a certain way , because moving to a particular place will be deadly and useless to do so. Controlling enemy options is as much about getting superior positioning as anything else. Defenders in front of artillery is controlling enemy options, by being between them and the DPS machines. Wizards with squares made impassible or causing ailments or negative effects is controlling options, by making it a less desirable move to go through there. Chaladins with their debuff, warlocks with their debuff, etc, are all forcing the enemy into having less viable decisions, controlling options.

Avenger is no different, it only plays different superficially.

Does the avenger have enough damage output to effectively knockout artillery and mages ?

Usually woudn`t it be better to have someone helping to concentrate and kill enemy tough guys before heading to take down the ranged attacks ?

In any game the order of KT goes like this.

Healing capable, low defense.
Healing capable, average defense.
High damage, low defense.
High damage, average defense.
Average, damage, low defense.
Average damage, average defense.
Low damage, low defense.
Low damage, average defense.
Healing capable high defense.
High damage, high defense.
Average damage, high defense.
Low damage, high defense.

Someone else can edit and add in the controllers in their appropriate place, Im going to bed

Edit one last time.. cause its a quickie.

Does the avenger have enough damage output to effectively knockout artillery and mages ?

Usually woudn`t it be better to have someone helping to concentrate and kill enemy tough guys before heading to take down the ranged attacks ?

Brutes might have high damage, but they have higher defense than artillery, and you lower enemy group Damage rate much faster killing those weaker. see my list.

 

[DracoSuave]

Brutes might have high damage, but they have higher defense than artillery, and you lower enemy group Damage rate much faster killing those weaker. see my list.

To further expound on this. Brutes hit HARD, but are not accurate. Artillery hits HARD, AND is accurate.

Which is the higher threat value?

 

[bonus]

Also lettuce not forget, the avenger has a really good AC compared to the other striker classes.

 

[Rashak Mani]

To further expound on this. Brutes hit HARD, but are not accurate. Artillery hits HARD, AND is accurate.

Which is the higher threat value?

I understand the threat value... its a good way to put it. Still will a lone Avenger drop the artillery faster than the Brute had one more striker been hitting the Brute ? What is important is how many attacks the group suffers... and ganging up on a single target means it drops faster and attacks less. While spreading out strikers might means spreading out damage to enemies.

 

[Garthanos]

I understand the threat value... its a good way to put it. Still will a lone Avenger drop the artillery faster than the Brute had one more striker been hitting the Brute ? What is important is how many attacks the group suffers... and ganging up on a single target means it drops faster and attacks less. While spreading out strikers might means spreading out damage to enemies.

The party takes fewer hits by having the Artillery engaged (even before it gets taken out). So the usefulness of zipping over there is immediate...rather than eventual. Ganging the brute does not stop it until its defeated.

 

[DracoSuave]

That's right. Your Defenders should be where the brutes are, where their higher defenses and lockdown and lower accuracy for the brutes combine to negate their threat value completely.

The last place you want the Avenger at the start of the battle is on this front line, that's where soldiers be, and soldiers will prevent an Avenger from doing anything -but- attack the soldier. Now granted, the soldier is less of a problem for an Avenger than it is a ranger or rogue, but now the Artillery is freed up to damage the party, and they -will- damage the party.

How many decades of D&D has it been engrained in us 'Kill the f*^&ing mage?' It's -no- different in 4e, except that 'mage' includes archer.

 

[DracoSuave]

That's right. Your Defenders should be where the brutes are, where their higher defenses and lockdown and lower accuracy for the brutes combine to negate their threat value completely.

The last place you want the Avenger at the start of the battle is on this front line, that's where soldiers be, and soldiers will prevent an Avenger from doing anything -but- attack the soldier. Now granted, the soldier is less of a problem for an Avenger than it is a ranger or rogue, but now the Artillery is freed up to damage the party, and they -will- damage the party.

How many decades of D&D has it been engrained in us 'Kill the f*^&ing mage?' It's -no- different in 4e, except that 'mage' includes archer.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Sorry for the insistence... we haven`t had much chance of testing these new classes and races in my group.

Also my experience in D&D is that anyone trying to operate too forward... usually gets badly beaten or killed. Also as a player of a Wizard... I find that its quite easy to just shift and blast anyway.

So do in fact Avengers work well as solo mage/archer killers ?

 

[DracoSuave]

So do in fact Avengers work well as solo mage/archer killers ?

Depending on the Avenger build, but often 'Shift and Blast away' = 'Avenger hits you even harder now.'

Shifting stops OAs, but it does NOT stop Censure of Persuit, and it does NOT counter Oath of Persuit.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

So do in fact Avengers work well as solo mage/archer killers ?

Oh, HELL yes.

I play a Pursuing Avenger, and my job is generally one of two things:

A) Find something that needs occupying, and occupy it;
B) Find something that's wiggly and squishy and rip its head off.

The DM is a bit big on brutes, but occasionally I'll see something that I can chase down and eviscerate. One fight, I action point novaed a warforged resounder from full to dead in a round after he'd moved away from me.

So, yes, they can easily gank the enemy skirmisher/artillery. Sure, the brute might get another hit or two in, but the artillery's doing highly accurate damage into the rest of the party, so it's just better tactically to take out the high value target first.

Brad