Balance Meter - allowing flavorful imbalance in a balanced game

Oh, meant to get back to this.

Thank you BryonD for that unique and interesting definition of "open mind". I had no idea that "open mind" meant "choose an interpretation based on the sketchiest of anecdotal information, defend that interpretation against all other interpretations, thus claiming it to be the one true interpretation and no other interpretation comes even close."

I'll be sure to add that one to the dictionary.
Hey look! Hussar is telling everyone what I said again!!!

I'll stand by my actual sound and reasonable assessments and the track record of accurate predictions that have come from them.

you can lie about my position and thought processes all you want.
 

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I honestly believe that if 4e had been written in a softer style, we wouldn't be having all these edition wars.
I know a lot of people who strongly dislike the 4E mechanics. Style of presentation tone has nothing to do with it.

There have been "all these" edition wars, and yet nearly unlimited opportunities for presenting the mechanics in a soft style have failed to make the actual issues with the mechanics themselves go away.
 

Ok now we're pretty close to agreement. I agree the adventure certainly had that problem, I went through H1-H3 (and kept going), foolishly thinking they were going to be great. So I know exactly what your talking about this. I would add that the presentation of the content in the PH are also a problem, it seems more like a rulebook then previous edtions. I know most will disagree, but I'm a big fan of fluff mixing INTO powers.

Lastly, and Im sure this is where we differ, I think some of the monotony and focus on balance in the classes is telling us "to play thrash metal" where thrash metal is the type of tactile combat play that H1-H3 was geared for. In my POV, more balance is required in a combat heavy tactical game, in my different type of rock (lets call it folk), I think it is much more valuable to have powers that are NOT siloed between the pillars, and an emphasis on fantastic powers that are mechanically different to give as much flavor to the players. I think the fact that in the PH all classes could only use the same amount of powers in the same format (will, encounter, daily) indicates a preference to thrash metal. I think both styles require balance, just thrash probably requires a bit more fine tuned balance then folk does. I see their move away from strict will, encounter, daily powers in Essential is an attempt to welcome other styles.

Oh, I think we are almost on the same page. I just disagree about the strength of the product underneath. I don't entirely agree about the PHB, but do consider it a not terribly inspiring document.

To expand, there are several types of resource in 4e character design. Attack powers, Skills, Utility Powers, Feats, and Class. Attack powers are almost entirely silo'd towards combat unless you are a monk, but there are also a few decent mobility combat powers for other classes. (Seriously, some monk attacks come with the ability to fly short distances or teleport). Skills are silo'd to almost entirely out of combat uses with rare exceptions (notably stealth but also athletics and acrobatics are commonly used in combat). Some classes have almost pure combat features (Fighter) and some have mostly non-combat features (Bard). And feats and utility powers can be pure combat, pure non-combat, or anywhere in between.

This is not fundamentally different from 3.X where your skills were mostly non-combat, your BAB, HP, and saves were mostly combat, your class features were mostly fixed (sneak attack - pure combat, rage - pure combat), and your feats could vary but were mostly combat. Other than for casters (who are far too strong IMO in 3.X) this is actually more locked down than 4e characters in the PHB are.

I've had a quick look through the 3.5 SRD and other than metamagic and item creation feats, the only non-combat feats appear to be Run, Track, Skill Focus, and variations on skill focus that either give a limited +4 or give +2 to two separate skills. The 4e PHB on the other hand has for heroic tier characters Skill Training, Skill Focus (and number of variants giving +2 and another bonus), Jack of All Trades, Ritual Caster, Linguist, Mounted Combat (which has more non-combat use than the 3.X version as it allows the mount to use the PC's skills), and 8 multiclass feats (all providing skill training). Which means that by my count there are more distinct feats in the 4e PHB that are not about combat than in the 3.5 SRD. This silo is far more open.

However what mathematically was (the silos are generally more open in 4e for PCs that aren't primary spellcasters (counting the bard as a primary caster*)) was not what was presented. 3.X hid the silos but made them pretty tight. 4e drew more attention to these silos even though they are more porous. And especially with the mistake in the monster math, incidental combat takes too damn long (it's great for big setpieces and showdowns, but not for random patrol-bashing).

* The 3.5 bard is my favourite class in 3.5 and one of my favourites in any edition of D&D. Decently powerful without being overwhelming (other than the glibness spell), decently flexible, and a caster of the sort I see in low fantasy or mythology. He's decried as weak because he's normally compared to the tier 1 casters like the wizard or druid, or the tier 2 like the sorceror.
 

/snip

As much as I thought organized play via Living Greyhawk had a lot of potential for people to get out and enjoy the game in new ways yet with the old character, I think its popularity and the challenges associated with running it helped drive that focus. Combat heavy scenarios, an easy route to get feedback from the RPGA network, coming up with ways to iron out variance between tables. I think all of it contributed to the 4e design atmosphere.

If 4e's combat-heavy tone was a mistake, I'm beginning to think it was a mistake they had to make and learn from for the long term health of the game.

I've long been of the opinion that 4e was the RPGA edition. Most of the changes seemed to spring out of how games were being played at the RPGA. I suppose, if their goal was to massively increase the player base with a sort of MMO approach to gaming, then going down that road makes some sense.

However, I do believe that it's not one that led to much success. :D
 

I've long been of the opinion that 4e was the RPGA edition. Most of the changes seemed to spring out of how games were being played at the RPGA. I suppose, if their goal was to massively increase the player base with a sort of MMO approach to gaming, then going down that road makes some sense.
Here we very much agree. And I don't mean that in any snarky manner.

I very much believe they wanted to score a large group of new players from outside the ranks of historic table top players. I'm not in the 4E is an MMO camp. But I am in the 4E is a TTRPG intended to try to bring MMO players into the fold camp. And from a business perspective, success there would be huge if you can get it.
 

I've long been of the opinion that 4e was the RPGA edition. Most of the changes seemed to spring out of how games were being played at the RPGA. I suppose, if their goal was to massively increase the player base with a sort of MMO approach to gaming, then going down that road makes some sense.

However, I do believe that it's not one that led to much success. :D
Given that I volunteered for the RPGA in both 3.5e and 4e, I can agree with this. I don't think it was a bad decision though. The RPGA was one of the few places where you could play 3.5e with no house rules at all and just see how the game played without DMs "correcting" the mechanics.

I saw what happened and it scared me. I ran a Living Greyhawk game for level 16 characters in a GenCon Special. It was stupid in a way I can't even describe. And I've seen the players in my home game powergame a LOT. These PCs managed to double or triple their power. I went to GenCon having read the adventure and thinking "Wow, they need to fix the rules to prevent authors from making way over the top traps and encounters, no one will survive this" to finding out that it was exactly the opposite, the players were so powerful that they blew through the encounters without taking any real damage.

I think it was then that I truly realized how much we needed mechanics that didn't allow people to build that sort of character, so that DMing wouldn't feel so much like an exercise in going through the motions of the PCs killing everything in sight without a single worry for their own life.

And then 4e came out and it solved nearly every problem I had spent my time in the RPGA worrying about. Only no one liked it...and I suspect a lot of it had to do with being unable to make characters that could blow through everything like they could before. The very reason the changes were made tended to be the same reason no one liked them.
 

Given that I volunteered for the RPGA in both 3.5e and 4e, I can agree with this. I don't think it was a bad decision though. The RPGA was one of the few places where you could play 3.5e with no house rules at all and just see how the game played without DMs "correcting" the mechanics.

I saw what happened and it scared me. I ran a Living Greyhawk game for level 16 characters in a GenCon Special. It was stupid in a way I can't even describe. And I've seen the players in my home game powergame a LOT. These PCs managed to double or triple their power. I went to GenCon having read the adventure and thinking "Wow, they need to fix the rules to prevent authors from making way over the top traps and encounters, no one will survive this" to finding out that it was exactly the opposite, the players were so powerful that they blew through the encounters without taking any real damage.

I think it was then that I truly realized how much we needed mechanics that didn't allow people to build that sort of character, so that DMing wouldn't feel so much like an exercise in going through the motions of the PCs killing everything in sight without a single worry for their own life.

And then 4e came out and it solved nearly every problem I had spent my time in the RPGA worrying about. Only no one liked it...and I suspect a lot of it had to do with being unable to make characters that could blow through everything like they could before. The very reason the changes were made tended to be the same reason no one liked them.

Wow. I completely agree with your quote and the last one about it being an edition geared to RPGA. I am not interested in that formal playing style, and could care less about imbalance issues that only come up in that style, so naturally that sways a lot of my opinions against that type of edition/ruleset.
 

Wow. I completely agree with your quote and the last one about it being an edition geared to RPGA. I am not interested in that formal playing style, and could care less about imbalance issues that only come up in that style, so naturally that sways a lot of my opinions against that type of edition/ruleset.
The thing is, I think we played 3.5e the way the rules made it out to be. In other words, we played the real 3.5e D&D. Thus, we saw all the ugly parts of it.

It wasn't so much that we played in public locations or that we had campaign rules. My home campaign suffered all the same problems because I DMed it in the same way I DMed Living Greyhawk games: Completely by the rules.

The rules created the imbalance, not the style. It's just that a lot of DMs corrected the imbalance by not playing by the rules. And any rules can be awesome...if you don't use them.
 

and I suspect a lot of it had to do with being unable to make characters that could blow through everything like they could before.
I agree with most of what you said. But I don't think this is true.

Not that I doubt you could find people who are accurately described as you put it. There is no doubt that 3E is far more open to the possibility of total abuse so that niche will go there. It is also very possible that the view of the RPGA players is different than the "on average" view and I'm simply not able to speak to the RPGA side.

But on the "overall" side I don't see this as a common complaint at all. And, if anything, I think of debates such as "don't make my pc face save or die" and "I want my 20 to always be a crit" and others and the trend was that 4E fans liked changes that FAVORED the PCs and people who didn't like 4E tended to dislike them.
 

But on the "overall" side I don't see this as a common complaint at all. And, if anything, I think of debates such as "don't make my pc face save or die" and "I want my 20 to always be a crit" and others and the trend was that 4E fans liked changes that FAVORED the PCs and people who didn't like 4E tended to dislike them.
Not everyone doesn't like it for that reason, obviously. Still, there are a number of people who have that problem with it. Most of them don't phrase it that way because they either don't want to be seen as a munchkin...or they don't really know that's the reason themselves.

A lot of people look at the books and say "So, I have to pick 4 powers from a list of abilities and I get 1 feat? How do I make a character like my character from 3.5e who could fly above the battle immune to all energy based attacks and all weapon attacks that weren't magical while I lowered all the enemies strength to 3 and trapped them in a web that they couldn't leave? Maybe at higher levels? No...none of those powers are available. Well, this edition is stupid. It just doesn't have enough options for me."

But the problem is, the options that are missing aren't there because they were imbalanced. It's a catch-22. Balance the game and people get annoyed at the lack of choice. Keep the game imbalanced and it's no fun to DM most of the time because the game is so unbalanced.
if anything, I think of debates such as "don't make my pc face save or die" and "I want my 20 to always be a crit" and others and the trend was that 4E fans liked changes that FAVORED the PCs and people who didn't like 4E tended to dislike them.
I haven't seen too many players complaining about Save or Dies. Most of the people in the RPGA wanted to get rid of Save or Dies, not because of how they affected PCs, but because of how often the PCs could use them against enemies. It felt very anticlimactic when you played a 4 part adventure over 20 hours and you reached the bad guy at the end, just in the midst of finishing his plot that you'd been hearing about all this time. Only to have the PCs open up with 3 Save or Dies, each of which had a 75% chance of failing.

I didn't actually hear anyone at all calling for the crits to always succeed. In fact, as far as I can tell the only reason that got changed was due to WOTC market research outside of the RPGA. I saw one of the Designers say that they figured out one less die roll sped up the game, so they removed it.

Most players in the RPGA were very happy with the way the game system worked. It let you make whatever you want and players would compete with each other to make more powerful characters than anyone else. We lost a lot of players to Pathfinder because of the switch to 4e. Most of my good friends who were fellow volunteers in the RPGA now spend all their time trying to convert me over to Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society. Some of them are relatively militant about it.

This is partially because they are still allowed to make the kind of broken characters they are used to, and partially because Jason Buhlman was one of the Circle members for the RPGA. So, when he said "I don't like 4e, I think we only need to make small changes to 3.5e instead....oh, and I'm going to recreate Living Greyhawk using our new system" a lot of people followed him since they were good friends with him or at least knew of him.

Most of the people from the RPGA who got into the Beta test for 4e got in because they were really dedicated to the RPGA(i.e. they DMed a lot), so most of the feedback given was "Fix this so it's easier for us to DM and fairer to the monsters".
 

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