Balancing the fighting styles.

[IndyPendant]

Hi all.

This post is predicated upon the belief (which I share) that the fighting styles are unbalanced. Specifically, that two-handed fighting is slightly overpowered when compared to sword and board (one-handed weapon and shield), and two-weapon fighting is severely underpowered when compared to S&B (except for the rogue, where it's only slightly underpowered).

With that foundation in mind, I have implemented the following changes into my campaigns. I thought I would run them past you, and see what you thought. I expect there will be a lot of "I-don't-like-it" responses; if you don't, could you please explain why? I believe these changes balance out the fighting styles--but I could very well be wrong. Without giving examples that 'break' my changes however, simply stating you don't like them is utterly useless.

That having been said, if you like them, feel free to give me moral support! : )

Anyways, here they are:

Two-Handed Weapon Changes:

Power Attack: The multipliers to damage become 0.5/1/1.5, instead of 0/1/2.
Animated Shields: Instead of the SRD ability, an animated shield has all the properties of the ‘Dancing’ Magic Weapon Ability, except that it only provides its AC (it does not attack), and it remains at a +2 enchantment bonus cost instead of the +4 cost for a Dancing weapon.

Two-Weapon Fighting Changes:

Two-Weapon Defense: Removed from the game.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Requires Dex 13+ instead of Dex 15+, and allows you to fight with a light weapon in your off-hand at no penalty to either weapon’s attack rolls, instead of a -2 penalty.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting: Requires Dex 15+ instead of 17+, and allows full iterative attacks with the off-hand weapon when taking a full-attack action.
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: Removed from the game.
Two-Weapon Strike: This ability, unique to 11th-level rangers with the TWF Combat Style, allows them to make an attack with each weapon in most situations where they would normally only be allowed a single weapon attack. For example, when making Attacks of Opportunity, and when making a melee attack as a Standard action, an 11th-level ranger can make a single attack with each weapon.
Empower Two-Weapon Fighting [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: Str 14, BAB +1, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You may attack with a one-handed weapon in your off-hand without penalty, instead of just a light weapon. You gain your full strength bonus to damage with your off-hand attacks, instead of one-half your strength bonus.

Rationale: 2-for-1 damage bonus with Power Attack is too powerful for THF, the animated shield eats far too much into benefits that should be exclusive to S&B, and you don't get enough of a benefit with TWF to justify the 29837412 feats required to master the fighting style. Rogues gain some nice benefits from the TWF and SA combo--but to do so requires the expenditure of (nearly) all the PC's feats on TWF--and require the rogue to make full-attacks to gain the benefits, which means going to toe-to-toe with the bad guys, usually a losing proposition for the lightly-armoured, low-hp class. Two-Weapon Strike also helps put Rangers back into their proper spot as the masters of the TWF style.

Anyways, what do you think? Can you break it? : )

 

[delericho]

Anyways, here they are:Rationale: 2-for-1 damage bonus with Power Attack is too powerful for THF, the animated shield eats far too much into benefits that should be exclusive to S&B,

I agree with your changes to Power Attack. I had previously just dropped the Animated shield from the game, but after reviewing the Dancing trait, I think I like that change better.

Rogues gain some nice benefits from the TWF and SA combo--but to do so requires the expenditure of (nearly) all the PC's feats on TWF

My gut feeling is that Two-weapon style combined with Sneak Attack is overly generous with your changes. I agree something needs to be done, but I'm not sure what, but again I don't think it's quite these changes. (Amongst other things, it might be best if they state 'Sneak Attack cannot be used with off-hand attacks'. I'm sure there's precedent for this in the descriptions of certain spells that generate multiple simultaneous ray attacks.)

Two-Weapon Strike also helps put Rangers back into their proper spot as the masters of the TWF style.

I don't agree that that is their proper spot. Strikes me that a Fighter who specialises in a particular combat style should be the premier combatant in that sphere. I actually like that about the current rules.

 

[Li Shenron]

Anyways, what do you think? Can you break it? : )

The Power Attack is nice, although I still prefer the even simpler 3.0 version.

The Animated Shield variant is very interesting!

I can't comment much on the 2WF because I don't share the opinion that it is normally underpowered. To me for example full attack with both is not acceptable for a 2 feats cost.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I like it, except that TWF is now an incredibly magnetic option for rogues. My solution is to rule that you can't deal SA damage with more than one weapon at a time.

TS

 

[IndyPendant]

Removing SA on off-hand attacks is an excellent idea that balances the rogue perfectly, thanks! I have now changed my Two-Weapon Fighting feat to show the following:

Two-Weapon Fighting: Requires Dex 13+ instead of Dex 15+, and allows you to fight with a light weapon in your off-hand at no penalty to either weapon’s attack rolls, instead of a -2 penalty. You can no longer deal sneak attack damage with an off-hand weapon if you also attack with your main weapon.

This also opens up Two-Weapon Strike to be used by anyone as a feat, and not just rangers:

Two-Weapon Strike [Combat Feat]
Prerequisites: BAB +11, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefits: You may make an attack with each weapon in most situations where you would normally only be allowed a single weapon attack. For example, when making Attacks of Opportunity, and when making a melee attack as a Standard action, you can make a single attack with each weapon.
Special: An 11th-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Strike, even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

What do you think? I have one niggling concern about this: there doesn't seem to me to be any reason why Two-Weapon Strike couldn't have a BAB prereq of +6 instead of +11. But if I do that, then what do I offer Rangers at 11th level?

Hmm...

 

[Nifft]

This looks very good.

I'd allow TWStrike as a Feat (BAB +11). Why +11? Because at that level, you'd be losing four attacks rather than just two, so it seems like full attacks are still valuable.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Destil]

You're still making two weapon fighters take a greater number of feats vs. the two-handed user. This has always will be the biggest problem since the style is less powerful overal, if you want balance (though the lower Dex scores needed matches my own house rules). Two weapon fighting (and sword and board) should require a heavier feat investment to be as good as they are.

Here's what I've been considering:
Remove the ability for a shield to be used with two weapon fighting.
Remove the default 1.5x str bonus to damage with a two-handed weapon.
Drop the Dex requirements of the TWF tree 2 points each.
Drop dancing and animated weapons and shields.

Power Grip
Str 13+
Benifit: You add one and one-half times your strength bonus to damage. You can also choose to subtract up to 5 from your to-hit bonus and add the same amount to damage.
Normal: You add your strength bonus to damage with a two handed weapon.

Power Attack
BAB 6+, Power Grip
Benifit: You may subtract from your your to-hit bonus by up to your base attack bonus and add that amount to damage. If wielding a two-handed weapon you you add double that amount to damage, instead

Shield Focus
Dex 13+
You add your shield bonus to your Touch AC and Reflex saves.

Shield Bash
BAB 1+
When you make a full attack you may make one extra attack with your shield at your highest attack bonus -2, as if attacking with an off-hand weapon (your main hand attacks do not suffer this penelity, however). A buckler deals 1d3 damage, a light shield deals 1d4 damage and a heavy shield deals 1d6 damage. A spiked shield has a x3 crit multiplier and a bladed shield has a 19-20 threat range. You can not bash with a tower shield.

Shield Mastery
Bab 6+, Shield Focus
You no longer suffer a -2 penelity to hit with a shield bash. When you sucessfully strike an opponent with a shield bash attack you gain +2 dodge bonus to AC against that opponent until your next action.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

First of all, fully agree with the rule on animated shields, and I've already adopted that. As for power attack, I like give the 0.5 multiplier on the light weapon end, but why all the hate for the 2x damage for 2-handers? It's what lets the fighter keep up in damage output with the casters. If you're problem is how it can be combined with Leap Attack, Frenzied Berserker, etc... for an even bigger multiplier, then change/ban those instead.

Off of that, I think the best way to catch the other styles up is to power them up, not weaken 2-handed fighting. As for your TWF ideas, I think TWF is already bordering on too powerful, as it effectively contains TWF and Ambidexterity, and even partially steps on Quickdraw's toes already. I have no problem reducing the dex required, and letting Improved scale with iterative attacks is a good idea to reduce feats. Instead of eliminating TW Defense, why not just make it a single feat that scales with the number of off-hand attacks?

I disagree with two-weapon strike allowing both attacks on an AoO. The use with a standard action attack is fine and needed. I think the better way to handle AoO's is to make it part of the Combat Reflexes feat: "For a cost of two of your attacks of opportunity for the round, you may attack once with each weapon you wield in response to a single action that draws an attack of opportunity. This function of the feat requires TWF"

Empower TWF seems completely broken, especially if combined with a nerfing of PA for 2-handers. Not to mention a feat of that magnitude shouldn't be obtainable so early. Just make a feat that reduces TWF penalties by 2 each hand, with a prereq of 2 off-hand attacks and TWF feat, perhaps? That way, the player can either use a light weapon at no penalty or a 1-handed weapon at -2 each hand. Empower seems to leave no logical reason to use a light off-hand weapon. A feat that effectively gives +2 to all attacks is double the power of Weapon Finesse, and would apply to all weapons, so it's certainly valid as its own feat.

Look forward to your houserules for sword & board. And how about giving some attention to the poor single weapon, nothing in off-hand loser fighter? Everybody seems to forget he exists.