Creatures like the Balrog that survived into the 3rd age were also generally much dimminished or so corrupted by that time, that they were a shadow of what they had been. So while it might originally have rated something like divine rank 0, I don't think the one Gandalf encountered would have had any.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Balrog from Lord of the Rings (part 1)
- Thread starter deathbecomesus
- Start date
Desdichado
Hero
In Tolkien, there are no such things as "lesser gods." There is One God, Eru, and other "powers" that are often called "angelic", of which the balrogs were a corrupted version.Kaledor said:
No, only Ea/Eru is a god. The others are like individualized celestials or demons, but are not godlike.Kaledor said:
No, he most certainly is not. He is also considerably more powerful than a balrog. And yet, he was defeated by a mortal himself; Isildur did it.Kaledor said:
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that that's why Gandalf succeeded. Especially since non-mortals have indeed been successful against powerful critters like that in the past, notably Sauron himself, who was much more powerful than any balrog.Kaledor said:
Quasqueton
First Post
I was sadly unimpressed with how the movie balrog went down (literally) so easy. The image, the build up ("a demon of the ancient world"), the sound, etc. were all quite impressive. But it didn't *do* anything, but fall off a bridge.
And folks around here poopooed the description on WotC's site of a battle against a balor demon. At least it *did* something.
Quasqueton
And folks around here poopooed the description on WotC's site of a battle against a balor demon. At least it *did* something.
Quasqueton
Psychic Warrior
First Post
Phaedrus said:
Oh I wish I could find the write up someone did a few years ago showing how the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog would have played out in a D&D session - comedy gold!
Yup, as I translate it into D&D 3ed, a "typical" Balrog had divine rank of about 5 or 6 in the first age and lost most of that when Melkor/Morgoth was defeted (down to 0 or 1).Rackhir said:
Sauron, the cheif balrog, would have had divine 10 under Melkor/Morgoth and lost most of that (down to 1) untill he tricked humans into giving him their very souls to him with the rings (up to 5). When he was seprated from the ring he lose much of it once more (back to 1).
Gandalf started with Divine 1 and was given a ring (up to 2).
The eldest of the Elf would have Divine 0, thoes whom were born in the first age. And the Elron would gain Divine 0 from his ring. Lady of the Woods (cannot rember name) is from the late first age (if I rember correct) and has a ring, thus having Divine 1.
The World of Middle saps divine rank from crupted Valar and Maiar and gives that to the Powerful race of the age. Elves and a few humans in the first age, Human in the second age but Sauron tricked humans out of it. The Third age saw Sauron loose it back to the Human and a handful of Hobbits.
This is the third time I've tried to write this... my computer keeps eating my posts :\
I'd agree to the statment if we were just having a conversation about Tolkien's works. Eru/Ea is The Tolkien God - The Creator... But the question is how to translate it to D&D. The Valar are more powerful than the Solar in the MM. They have divine powers and grant powers to their "followers". And Tolkien *does* say himself that they were considered gods by Men. So if *I* were stating them up for D&D I'd give them Divine Ranks (course, that doesn't mean much, 'cause what's it matter what *I'd* do in *my* campaign ). But, considering that they appear similar in power to the likes of the mythical greek and roman gods AND they have Divine D&D Ranks, I think it would be good to give the Valar similar power levels.
Well first, it's not like Isildur is a "Regular Human". Being Dunedain's got to give him something special in D&D. If you don't like the celestial template idea, then I'd claim he should at least be Epic... But then again... I'm arguing that Isildur is exceptionally powerful b/c he "killed" Sauron and Sauron has Divine Ranks, while you're using the same info to say that b/c Sauron was "killed" by Isildur they both must be weak. And really there's no solution to those two sides I guess it depends on the power level you prefer in your game. If I give Divine Ranks to the Valar and less to the Maiar, then Isildur better be something special too. If you make the Valar Angles/Celestials in the MM, then Isildur could just be a high-level fighter.
As for Sauron NOT being a Balrog. This is interesting. I've always infered that he was base on a small passage in the Silmarillion. In the first mention of Balrogs, it says that Melkor corrupted the Maiar. They became his servants. Among these servants was a group called the Balrogs. The next sentence says that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's named servants. Now, *I* have always read that to simply mean that the "Evil Maiar" are the Balrogs and the strongest was called Sauron. Since there's no real distinction made between individual power levels of the Maiar. But I'm definitely interested to hear was you're certain that's not the case (honestly, that's not sarcasm or such).
In either case, back to the thread, the Balrogs aren't peons compared to Sauron. They are corrupted Ainur as is Sauron. So, again in terms of D&D, I would stat them with similar (though lesser) powers.
---And I'm gonna stop this post now so I don't lose it like its previous incarnations.
Joshua Dyal said:
I'd agree to the statment if we were just having a conversation about Tolkien's works. Eru/Ea is The Tolkien God - The Creator... But the question is how to translate it to D&D. The Valar are more powerful than the Solar in the MM. They have divine powers and grant powers to their "followers". And Tolkien *does* say himself that they were considered gods by Men. So if *I* were stating them up for D&D I'd give them Divine Ranks (course, that doesn't mean much, 'cause what's it matter what *I'd* do in *my* campaign
). But, considering that they appear similar in power to the likes of the mythical greek and roman gods AND they have Divine D&D Ranks, I think it would be good to give the Valar similar power levels.Joshua Dyal said:
Well first, it's not like Isildur is a "Regular Human". Being Dunedain's got to give him something special in D&D. If you don't like the celestial template idea, then I'd claim he should at least be Epic... But then again... I'm arguing that Isildur is exceptionally powerful b/c he "killed" Sauron and Sauron has Divine Ranks, while you're using the same info to say that b/c Sauron was "killed" by Isildur they both must be weak. And really there's no solution to those two sides
I guess it depends on the power level you prefer in your game. If I give Divine Ranks to the Valar and less to the Maiar, then Isildur better be something special too. If you make the Valar Angles/Celestials in the MM, then Isildur could just be a high-level fighter. As for Sauron NOT being a Balrog. This is interesting. I've always infered that he was base on a small passage in the Silmarillion. In the first mention of Balrogs, it says that Melkor corrupted the Maiar. They became his servants. Among these servants was a group called the Balrogs. The next sentence says that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's named servants. Now, *I* have always read that to simply mean that the "Evil Maiar" are the Balrogs and the strongest was called Sauron. Since there's no real distinction made between individual power levels of the Maiar. But I'm definitely interested to hear was you're certain that's not the case (honestly, that's not sarcasm or such).
In either case, back to the thread, the Balrogs aren't peons compared to Sauron. They are corrupted Ainur as is Sauron. So, again in terms of D&D, I would stat them with similar (though lesser) powers.
---And I'm gonna stop this post now so I don't lose it like its previous incarnations.
Similar Threads
