Balrog from Lord of the Rings (part 1)

[glass]

My questions is has anyone tried to give Stats to this Balrog creature?

Well I guess Decipher did somewhere. Of course, they'd be stats for Coda rather than d20...


glass.

 

[VorpalBunny]

I'm arguing that Isildur is exceptionally powerful b/c he "killed" Sauron and Sauron has Divine Ranks, while you're using the same info to say that b/c Sauron was "killed" by Isildur they both must be weak. And really there's no solution to those two sides I guess it depends on the power level you prefer in your game. If I give Divine Ranks to the Valar and less to the Maiar, then Isildur better be something special too. If you make the Valar Angles/Celestials in the MM, then Isildur could just be a high-level fighter.

I agree the Dunedain are not "common" men and should not be lumped together with them, but Isildur got lucky - plain and simple.

As for Sauron NOT being a Balrog. This is interesting. I've always infered that he was base on a small passage in the Silmarillion. In the first mention of Balrogs, it says that Melkor corrupted the Maiar. They became his servants. Among these servants was a group called the Balrogs. The next sentence says that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's named servants. Now, *I* have always read that to simply mean that the "Evil Maiar" are the Balrogs and the strongest was called Sauron. Since there's no real distinction made between individual power levels of the Maiar. But I'm definitely interested to hear was you're certain that's not the case (honestly, that's not sarcasm or such).

The most powerful balrog in the first age was named Gothmog. According to the Encyclopedia of Arda:

The most powerful of all the Balrogs, one of the chief servants of Melkor, who held an authority hardly less than Sauron himself. A wily commander and fearsome fighter, Gothmog was often accompanied by others of his fiery kind, and at least in the Nirnaeth he had a personal guard of dozens of trolls. His weapon was a great black axe.

He was slain by Ecthelion of the Fountain during the Fall of Gondolin.

Sauron is most definitely not a balrog. He was Maia (originally of Aulë , IIRC) and was *corrupted* by Melkor. Balrogs were Maia "fire spirits" that allied themselves with Morgoth in the first age.

 

[Kaledor]

He was Maia (originally of Aulë , IIRC) and was *corrupted* by Melkor. Balrogs were Maia "fire spirits" that allied themselves with Morgoth in the first age.

Okay, that was exactly what I thought. That both Sauron and the Balrogs were originally Maiar. And since there's not a whole lot of evidence that there are levels of Maia Power, that a Bolrog- and a Sauron-Maia are similar... Hmmmm. But I know the passage you're talking about where it says that Gothmog is the strongest (Lord) of the Balrogs. Since Sauron is stronger than Gothmog, Sauron can't be a Balrog. Got it.
Unless, you think about Sauron as a D&D Template that was applied to the base creature of Balrog. Meaning that once Sauron was named and became the Chief Lt of Melkor, he was no longer considered a Balrog. (This is just speculation).

But it IS safe (?) to say that a Balrog is an Evil Maia, AND Sauron is ALSO an Evil Maia. So, if you give Divine Ranks to a Maia, you may also want to give them to Sauron and the Balrogs.

 

[Desdichado]

So if *I* were stating them up for D&D I'd give them Divine Ranks (course, that doesn't mean much, 'cause what's it matter what *I'd* do in *my* campaign ).

And if *I* were doing it, they'd probably be something like the Archdevils and whatnot. I can't remember what the Celestial equivalents to Dispater, Demogorgon and Orcus are called, but they don't have divine rank. Sure, they've got CRs in the 30s, though.

I'm arguing that Isildur is exceptionally powerful b/c he "killed" Sauron and Sauron has Divine Ranks, while you're using the same info to say that b/c Sauron was "killed" by Isildur they both must be weak. And really there's no solution to those two sides I guess it depends on the power level you prefer in your game.

Well, don't forget, Isildur was later killed by a handful of Joe Blow orcs who shot him with an arrow or two as he came out of the water. That would be patently impossible for an epic level D&D character.

Really, though, all that proves is that making comparisons between LotR and D&D are probably a fruitless exercise. I'm not trying to demonstrate that my way is better than your way, simply that neither way really captures the essence of LotR very well.

As for Sauron NOT being a Balrog. This is interesting. I've always infered that he was base on a small passage in the Silmarillion. In the first mention of Balrogs, it says that Melkor corrupted the Maiar. They became his servants. Among these servants was a group called the Balrogs. The next sentence says that Sauron was the greatest of Melkor's named servants. Now, *I* have always read that to simply mean that the "Evil Maiar" are the Balrogs and the strongest was called Sauron. Since there's no real distinction made between individual power levels of the Maiar. But I'm definitely interested to hear was you're certain that's not the case (honestly, that's not sarcasm or such).

I didn't write this portion of the Silmarillion article on Wikipedia (although I did make some very minor edits to it for clarity) but it sums up the problems of the Silmarillion quite well. You can, if you like, insert my name where it says "hardcore fans."

Due to Christopher's extensive explanations of how he compiled the published work, much of The Silmarillion has been debated by the hardcore fans. Christopher's task is generally accepted as very difficult given the state of his father's texts at the time of his death: some critical texts were no longer in the Tolkien family's possession, and Christopher's task compelled him to rush through much of the material. Christopher reveals in later volumes of The History of Middle-earth many divergent ideas which do not agree with the published version. Christopher Tolkien has suggested that, had he taken more time and had access to all the texts, he might have produced a substantially different work. But he was impelled by considerable pressure and demand from his father's readers and publishers to produce something publishable as quickly as possible. One must remember this version is more a product of the son than the father.

Even before I read The History of Middle-earth vol. X, Morgoth's Ring and it's article "Myths Transformed" which extensively covers Morgoth and all his servents, including Sauron the balrogs and orcs, plus their origin, I think it was pretty obvious that Sauron wasn't a balrog. The balrogs were a discrete group, who had a distinct M.O. (shadow and flame, whips, etc.) and a distinct captain of their own (Gothmog) while Sauron was always described as Morgoth's most powerful servant (and therefore not under Gothmog), and completely unlike the balrogs in nature. Also, when Gandalf and Legolas and the rest of the fellowship discuss the balrog in Fellowship of the Ring, most of that conversation would be nonsensical if Sauron were himself a balrog.

 

[Desdichado]

And since there's not a whole lot of evidence that there are levels of Maia Power, that a Bolrog- and a Sauron-Maia are similar... Hmmmm.

Not a whole lot of evidence? It's explicitly and directly stated many times that there are levels of Maiar power. That Sauron was more powerful than the other spirits. That many of the spirits attracted to Morgoth were "lesser spirits." Even that the only real distinction between the Valar and the Maiar was power level. Even in The Silmarillion, but certainly moreso in other works.

The following is one such quote, from the "Myths Transformed" article mentioned above.

Melkor had corrupted many spirits - some great as Sauron, or less as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive Orcs.

 

[Rackhir]

Isildur had a luckly shot at his weakness. A weakness that Sauron placed upon himself when he put his essence in the ring.

He was also wielding what was probably one of the last great swords around, Narsil.

 

[VorpalBunny]

Hmmmm. But I know the passage you're talking about where it says that Gothmog is the strongest (Lord) of the Balrogs. Since Sauron is stronger than Gothmog, Sauron can't be a Balrog. Got it.

Dude, strength has nothing to do with it. Sauron can't be a balrog because the balrogs were fire spirits not allied with any Valar, while Sauron was a Maia "working" for the Valar named Aulë (until Morgoth corrupted him). Sauron was a lesser Ainur - the Balrogs weren't.

 

[Desdichado]

Dude, strength has nothing to do with it. Sauron can't be a balrog because the balrogs were fire spirits not allied with any Valar, while Sauron was a Maia "working" for the Valar named Aulë (until Morgoth corrupted him). Sauron was a lesser Ainur - the Balrogs weren't.

I agree that strength had nothing to do with it, but it is very explicitly stated in many places that Sauron was a "greater" spirit (i.e., stronger?) than the balrogs.

 

[Kaledor]

And if *I* were doing it, they'd probably be something like the Archdevils and whatnot. I can't remember what the Celestial equivalents to Dispater, Demogorgon and Orcus are called, but they don't have divine rank. Sure, they've got CRs in the 30s, though.

I *do* like the idea of making them equivalent to Dispater and such. It would give them enough power to be utterly terrifying (which you need to be able to scare off The Fellowship), but still make them approachable in combat. The best of both power "worlds".

Really, though, all that proves is that making comparisons between LotR and D&D are probably a fruitless exercise. I'm not trying to demonstrate that my way is better than your way, simply that neither way really captures the essence of LotR very well.

VERY well put. But it's often a fun mental exercise to make a square peg fit into round hole?

Even before I read The History of Middle-earth vol. X, Morgoth's Ring and it's article "Myths Transformed" which extensively covers Morgoth and all his servents, including Sauron the balrogs and orcs, plus their origin, I think it was pretty obvious that Sauron wasn't a balrog... Also, when Gandalf and Legolas and the rest of the fellowship discuss the balrog in Fellowship of the Ring, most of that conversation would be nonsensical if Sauron were himself a balrog.

I have to admit to having never read that... I probably just lost a few ranks in my Geek Skill ... I'll have to add it to my list of must-reads, it sounds very interesting. But as for the last commment. It's not necessarily a flaw in the LotR book. Since the state of Sauron had changed (no longer physical), it wouldn't be unusual to have the characters not make a connection. I'm not defending my position, b/c it seems clear that Sauron != Balrog, I just want it known that from the Sill. and LotR it's not COMPLETELY unheard of to make that connection. Seriously, I'm not of my rocker and can comprehend the English language

**I also never realized the circumstances of the authoring of the Silimarillion. It would it explain why the flow of the narrative is VERY segmented

 

[Kaledor]

I agree that strength had nothing to do with it, but it is very explicitly stated in many places that Sauron was a "greater" spirit (i.e., stronger?) than the balrogs.

And that's what I meant by strength (should've used a different word)...
As I was saying to VB, I understood his point to be that if Sauron was the greatest that he couldn't be a Balrog (b/c the greatest Balrog was named as Gothmog). Which is all he had said originally... JD points out a great book on the Histories of ME, which clearly states that Sauron is not Balrog. Upon seeing that, I agreed with JD. (Having never previously read that book it was news to me). ***BUT*** in the Silmarillion, it is not unreasonable to assume that (look at the only instance where the origin of both Sauron and the Balrogs is mentioned... my reprint has it on page 23)... blame that on Chris T. or myself for not having read the Histories of ME... Anyway... ignore that.
It's not important to the original question which WAS how to stat a Balrog:

My claim being that since they are both Evil Maiar (lesser spirits/lesser gods/celestials/whatever... and no one seems to be arguing that, (yet?)), however you would stat a Maia, you should do likewise with the Balrogs and stronger (er... "greater") Lesser Spirits. Now, I like a powerful version of each. I think that since the Valar and the Maiar have qualities similar to the greek and roman gods, they should get Divine Ranks b/c D&D decided that was the case. However, I ALSO really like JD's suggestion of making them more like the named archfiends (Dispater and such) with a high CR but a fight that a character COULD win.