Balrog from Lord of the Rings (part 1)

[TanisFrey]

Well, don't forget, Isildur was later killed by a handful of Joe Blow orcs who shot him with an arrow or two as he came out of the water. That would be patently impossible for an epic level D&D character.

Really, though, all that proves is that making comparisons between LotR and D&D are probably a fruitless exercise. I'm not trying to demonstrate that my way is better than your way, simply that neither way really captures the essence of LotR very well.

D&D can fit the feel of LotR if you use one of the varient rules in Unearthed Arcana. Body points. Basicly this changes the critical rules. So a critical hit by pass hit points and are
applited to the character body points that are equal to Connstitiun. When you are out of body points you are dead. A low level orc suddenly becomes deadly with a lucky shot to a high-level character. This rule also gives low-level character and creatures more staying power with this rule, when hit point run out additional attacks reduce the body points. Most 1st level humans will have 8-12 body points and 2-5 hit points.

 

[Desdichado]

My claim being that since they are both Evil Maiar (lesser spirits/lesser gods/celestials/whatever... and no one seems to be arguing that, (yet?)), however you would stat a Maia, you should do likewise with the Balrogs and stronger (er... "greater") Lesser Spirits.

Oddly enough, the nature of balrogs, and whether or not they really are Maiar is one of the big online controversies around them. Here's a good essay outlining the main points of the controversy.

It's not as big as the "do balrogs have wings" controversy, but it's still interesting nonetheless.

One thing the essay does ignore, though, is the literary use of describing balrogs as "Melko[r]'s creations" might mean that he corrupted them and made them what they were, not that he literally created them.

 

[Desdichado]

D&D can fit the feel of LotR if you use one of the varient rules in Unearthed Arcana. Body points. Basicly this changes the critical rules. So a critical hit by pass hit points and are
applited to the character body points that are equal to Connstitiun. When you are out of body points you are dead. A low level orc suddenly becomes deadly with a lucky shot to a high-level character. This rule also gives low-level character and creatures more staying power with this rule, when hit point run out additional attacks reduce the body points. Most 1st level humans will have 8-12 body points and 2-5 hit points.

I'm very familiar with that, but that's only one of many, many points where D&D and LotR diverge in feel, IMO. That would (perhaps) cover this one specific incident of a high level Isildur getting killed by a lucky shot from two orcs in the Gladden Fields marshes, but it still doesn't make D&D and LotR very close to each other.

 

[Hrihayal]

quick google-fu

--> http://community.dicefreaks.com/viewtopic.php?t=1467&highlight=balrog


Balrog, Valarauka, Spirit of Fire
Large Outsider (extraplanar, evil, fire, quasi-deity)
Divine Rank: 0
HD: 21d8+210 (378 vp, 30 wp)
Initiative: +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 60 (poor)
AC: 47 (+7 Dex, +10 deflection, +20 natural) touch 27, flat-footed 40
Base Attack/Grapple: +21/+38
Attack: Balrog blade +39 melee (2d6+18 +2d6 unholy +1d6 fire 17-20/+1d10 fire), or thong of fire +35 melee (1d4+13 nonlethal +3d6 fire 20/+6d6 fire)
Full Attack: Balrog blade +39/+34/+29/+24 melee (2d6+18 +2d6 unholy +1d6 fire 17-20/+1d10 fire), or thong of fire +35/+30/+25/+20 melee (1d4+13 nonlethal +3d6 fire 20/+6d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Flames of Udûn, fear, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Immune to fire, transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, mind-affecting effects; cold and acid resistance 10; outsider traits, darkvision 60 ft.; see invisibility; DR 10/epic and good; SR 36
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 24, Con 30, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 30
Skills: Bluff +34 (24 ranks), Intimidate +36 (24 ranks, +2 synergy), Knowledge (arcana) +29 (24 ranks), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +29 (24 ranks), Knowledge (nature) +31 (24 ranks, +2 synergy), Knowledge (religion) +29 (24 ranks), Listen +31 (24 ranks), Sense Motive +31 (24 ranks), Spellcraft +31 (24 ranks, +2 synergy, +2 scrolls), Spot +31 (24 ranks), Survival +31 (24 ranks, +2 above ground, +2 underground), Use Magic Device +34 (24 ranks, +2 scrolls)
Feats: Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-like Ability (fire shield), Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (heavy blades)
Epic Feats: Spellcasting Harrier
Climate/Terrain: Any underground and mountain
Organization: Solitary or battalion (2d10 trolls, 5d% orcs)
Challenge Rating: 23
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Any Evil
Advancement: 22-30 HD (Large), 31-40 HD (Huge)

"Standing before you is a massive coal-black figure burning from within like an inferno. Flames writhe from cracked, obsidian skin with an unholy heat. All around the demon the ground hisses with heat and where the red light of his flames does not reach is in utter darkness, as if fallen into void."

A balrog is a demon of the ancient world, corrupt spirits still driven by the will of the Dark Enemy himself, he who shall not be named. Their bodies are dense and of various shapes, from terrbile and demonic to nearly human. Despite these variations, one constant remains: the shadows and the flames of Udûn.

Flames of Udûn (Su): All creatures within 20 feet of a balrog suffer 10 points of fire damage and 10 points of unholy damage each round on the balrog's turn, Fort save (DC 30) for half of each. Evil creatures are immune to the unholy damage. If ever submersed in water, a balrog's flames are snuffed for 2d4 rounds. A balrog without its flames is a strange creature of slimy ash and a spitting red heat from deep within.
Fear (Su): So long as a balrog's flames are not snuffed out, it creates a fear effect at a radius of 30 feet. Creatures within the area must make a Will save (DC 30) or be frightened for 1d10 rounds. A creature who passes their save against a balrog's fear aura is immune to the fear aura of that balrog for one day.
Outsider Traits: Balrogs have darkvision (60-ft. range). They cannot be raised or resurrected.
See Invisibility (Su): Balrogs cannot be tricked by simple invisibility effects and benefit from see invisibility as though cast by a 21st level sorcerer. This effect can be dispelled normally, but a balrog may reactivate it as a free action on their turn.
Balrog Blade: Balrogs carry with them their signature weapons: flaming swords. This weapon is commonly a +5 unholy Large longsword of flaming burst, but can be made from any other heavy blade. Upon a balrog's death, their blade explodes, dealing 10d8 points of slashing damage to any creatures within a 20-ft. radius, Reflex save (DC 30) for half.
Thong of Fire: Balrogs carry a many-tailed thong of white heat in their off-hand. This thong acts as a +1 Large whip of fiery blast and can be used to make and maintain grapple checks at a range of 15 ft.
A balrog can maintain a grapple check with the thong as a move action and may continue to attack with his other hand while observing normal rules for two-weapon fighting.
As a move action, the balrog may attempt to drag a grappled opponent within 10 feet, thereby enabling the balrog to make melee attacks against the opponent. This maneuver requires the balrog to make a successful opposed grapple check against the grappled opponent.
Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will: bestow curse (DC 24), deeper darkness, doom (DC 21), fire shield (DC 25), fireball (DC 23), protection from good (DC 21), shadow walk (DC 26), unhallow, unholy aura (DC 28); 3/day: blasphemy (DC 27), fire storm (DC 28), greater shadow evocation (DC 28), meteor swarm (DC 29), shades (DC 29); 1/day: elemental swarm (fire). Caster level 21st, save DCs are Charisma-based.

 

[TanisFrey]

And that's what I meant by strength (should've used a different word)...
As I was saying to VB, I understood his point to be that if Sauron was the greatest that he couldn't be a Balrog (b/c the greatest Balrog was named as Gothmog). Which is all he had said originally... JD points out a great book on the Histories of ME, which clearly states that Sauron is not Balrog. Upon seeing that, I agreed with JD. (Having never previously read that book it was news to me). ***BUT*** in the Silmarillion, it is not unreasonable to assume that (look at the only instance where the origin of both Sauron and the Balrogs is mentioned... my reprint has it on page 23)... blame that on Chris T. or myself for not having read the Histories of ME... Anyway... ignore that.
It's not important to the original question which WAS how to stat a Balrog:

My claim being that since they are both Evil Maiar (lesser spirits/lesser gods/celestials/whatever... and no one seems to be arguing that, (yet?)), however you would stat a Maia, you should do likewise with the Balrogs and stronger (er... "greater") Lesser Spirits. Now, I like a powerful version of each. I think that since the Valar and the Maiar have qualities similar to the greek and roman gods, they should get Divine Ranks b/c D&D decided that was the case. However, I ALSO really like JD's suggestion of making them more like the named archfiends (Dispater and such) with a high CR but a fight that a character COULD win.

Deties and Demigods book was make so that characters that were 15-20 level could take on a Divine being Avatar with a rank up to about 5. It should be a boss level encounter that is a very tought fight, one that uses 50% or more of resorces and good posaibilaty of a death. Giving the Balorg a divine leve of 5 or less would make it something to be feared by most of the Fellowship, but not impossable for Gandlof to kill. Rember Gandlof, whom is a good Maiar, has been traveling middle earth for 60 human generations, about 1800 years, always riding into danger while elfs just as old sat at home.

 

[TanisFrey]

I'm very familiar with that, but that's only one of many, many points where D&D and LotR diverge in feel, IMO. That would (perhaps) cover this one specific incident of a high level Isildur getting killed by a lucky shot from two orcs in the Gladden Fields marshes, but it still doesn't make D&D and LotR very close to each other.

It makes them closer. Beorn in the fellowship movie would be an example of someone loosing both hit points and body points. He tried to continue to fight while wounded in body points.

 

[Kaledor]

I liked the link, Joshua. It's got some great details. I especially like how it pairs different incarnations of the same passage from different release times. Really showing, I think, how J.R.R. worked on his mythology -- that is, I know that as he has always seemed like less of a writer and more of a creator. And I remember reading in one of his biographies how his work was very fluid and developed in an oral nature. Many of his stories were shared with his peers at the local "hangout" before being committed to writing. So, it would be completely understandable if there was a little morphing of some details as things were developed.
I wish there was a more definative answer to the question. From what I've read, I'm sticking to the Balrog = Maiar. Tho' I really like the passage that indicates that Gothmog was once a son of Melkor. **VERY INTERESTING**

It's not as big as the "do balrogs have wings" controversy, but it's still interesting nonetheless.

oooh... now that *IS* one that I have heard before.
I like the visual of the wings. As do many artists that have depicted them to my knowledge...
But I haven't ever seen a reason for them that I remember except the "wreathed in fire" passage. Is it just that we think of demons as being Winged b/c they're fallen angles and we imagine them with wings (though that too doesn't really make sense).

Where do you stand on the wings or no wings?

 

[Desdichado]

Oddly enough, I just updated my blog on balrog issues; I'd read those articles again recently and had it on my mind.

 

[VorpalBunny]

And that's what I meant by strength (should've used a different word)...
As I was saying to VB, I understood his point to be that if Sauron was the greatest that he couldn't be a Balrog (b/c the greatest Balrog was named as Gothmog).

Ahhh. My bad then. I was reading "Strength" in a "my dad can beat up your dad" kind of way - not (as Joshua pointed out) in a greater/lesser spirit way.

Oh, BTW Joshua:

Read your blog - good stuff, but balrogs don't have wings.

 

[Desdichado]

It makes them closer. Beorn in the fellowship movie would be an example of someone loosing both hit points and body points. He tried to continue to fight while wounded in body points.

Yep. In my short-lived Middle-earth d20 campaign, I used VP/WP, which is almost exactly the same concept. Among other changes.