Bang goes one of my nastier builds

[Plane Sailing]

This thread, however, shows that the 3.5 change did exactly what it was supposed to do.

I agree that the 3.5 change did exactly what it was supposed to do. I just think that the revisers reasoning was faulty, and they shouldn't have changed it.

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

My experience is that, in play, it works out a lot better however.

Very frequently a lot of the mega damage hits end up being blow-through.
A 25 HP monster is just as dead if the dual wielder hits it three times for 12 points a hit or the greataxe guy power attacks for 80. And there are exceptions both ways. The greataxe IS better when facing one big monster. But the 2 weapon guy shines when taking on large numbers of small monsters. I LIKE that each shines at different times.

Agreed, the system itself is nicely balanced and fine. I just don't like the flavor of TWF more useful for the slow heavy armored guys and big bad evil twohanded weapons being better for the light fast fighters

It fits the barbarian style with the big hammer but not the skirmisher scout... for whom they presented a new class now to fix these flavor issues

 

[Kae'Yoss]

A rule that anyone can gain a +1 damage per -2 to hit with any weapon and no feat required would be a nice gap filler.

I have house rules that do something like that:

Power Attack is a combat option, no feat required: You get +1 damage for -2 every to attack you take, or +1/-1 for heavy weapon, +1/-4 for light weapons.

The Improved Power Attack Feat halves the penalties (you have the standard Power Attack mods then, plus +1/-2 for light weapons).

Same goes for ranged attacks (called called shot): +1/-2, or +1/-1 with feat.

 

[BryonD]

I agree that the 3.5 change did exactly what it was supposed to do. I just think that the revisers reasoning was faulty, and they shouldn't have changed it.

Cheers

Are you saying that you think PA should be used by two weapon fighters a lot more often than 2H fighters?

For feel I think they were dead on and for mechanical result I think they did adequate.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Are you saying that you think PA should be used by two weapon fighters a lot more often than 2H fighters?

Typically we saw power attack being used more by 2H fighters because

(a) they had spare feats that hadn't been invested in TWF.

(b) TWF guys had to focus on Dex to get the TWF feats and thus often went the finesse route and/or didn't meet the minimum strength for Power Attack anyway.

(c) TWF guys already had at least an extra -2 penalty on their attacks compared to the 2H guys, and so in any given situation the 2H guy could get an extra +2 from power attack compared to the TWF guy if they wanted.

It was an option that TWF could use freely to suck less, but it was taken more often and used more often by the 2H guys for all the above reasons in our games.

Cheers

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

With the 3.5e power attack 2H weapon damage is so grossly inflated compared to any other form of melee attack that suddenly 2H becomes the premier weapon style bar none (apart from someone who wants to pick something for style reasons). Our group didn't like that, and preferred the more balanced set of options in 3.0e.

I still see people making the choice of sword & board in the groups I DM. It gives you more versatility at low levels (and higher levels if you don't want to invest in the ever-cheesy animated shield) in that you can ready your shield to improve your AC vs. dangerous foes and still PA 1:1 or you can loose your shield and 2H your chosen weapon for 2:1 PA. The 2H wielder needs to hit hard and fast before a dangerous foe takes advantage of their lower AC and takes them out first.

 

[Li Shenron]

In 3.0 PA was BEST used by a two weapon fighter

How? With already a -2 to all attack rolls? Also, in 3.0 TWFers needed to spend TWO feats only to get started...

 

[Li Shenron]

I still see people making the choice of sword & board in the groups I DM.

So? I still see lots of 2-handed weapon warriors in our 3.0 campaigns

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

So? I still see lots of 2-handed weapon warriors in our 3.0 campaigns

Plane Sailing was making the assertion that 2H is best Bar None and that people only pick other fighting styles in 3.5 because of style reasons. So? So.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Plane Sailing was making the assertion that 2H is best Bar None and that people only pick other fighting styles in 3.5 because of style reasons. So? So.

OK, I'll admit that there was mild hyperbole in my comment... but only mild. Every non-rogue in all our campaigns use 2H weapon as their main weapon and have sword and board available as backup if they want to try to buff their AC a bit. And this is with 3.0 style power attack, no less! The bigger damage die and 1.5xStr make it so much more likely that you'll take a foe down quickly, plus gives much better chance of getting through DR too.

Rogues are the most common TWF because of the possibility of extra sneak attack damage, and the odd ranger because it was free and seemed like an interesting style (although the main ranger is archer focussed and uses a Greatsword when he has to get into melee).

That's my observation, anyway. I'm sure that other people will have had different experiences, but this is what I've noticed (and why we didn't change PA).

Cheers