Bang goes one of my nastier builds

[phindar]

With 3.0 PA, what's the incentive to carry a two-hand weapon? The extra half of your Str is only 2 or 3 points, and you're giving up the shield which can be anywhere from 2-6 points of AC.

A TWF, Imp Shield Basher isn't bad, and though I've never built one it looks like the best of both worlds. If a character took Two-Wpn Def, would you allow the Shield Bonus from that to stack with the shield he was using to bash with? (It is a feat for a +1 and another feat for a +2, so it doesn't seem so horribly out of whack.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

An excelletn house rule for PA is to go back to the 3.0 version. Gets rid of the cheesy 2:1 tradeoff, and opens the game up for lighter fighters like scouts and rogues.

A better house rule IMO is to use the same rules for strength. That is, x 1½. Also, limit it like combat expertise, to +5 (or +6 to make it even and useful at the ½) and then allow an Improved Power Attack feat for higher values.

 

[Plane Sailing]

With 3.0 PA, what's the incentive to carry a two-hand weapon?

1.5 times strength and bigger damage die.

So your 18 Str fighter can do 1d8+4 and have a shield or 2d6+6 without a shield. Makes a fine tradeoff.

With the 3.5e power attack 2H weapon damage is so grossly inflated compared to any other form of melee attack that suddenly 2H becomes the premier weapon style bar none (apart from someone who wants to pick something for style reasons). Our group didn't like that, and preferred the more balanced set of options in 3.0e.

Cheers

 

[Machiavelli]

They wanted some way to keep pace with spellcasters, as far as I can tell. Since I'm not a fan of the Vancian spellcasting system, I'm okay with the design decision that it should not be the best way to deal damage in combat, just an alternative way.

Remember, most of the classes/PrCs/feats that focus on one-handed weapons are for characters that have many more options in combat than just "take a 5-foot step and swing my sword." Out of combat the fighters and offensive-specialist mages have to step aside while the others show their worth.

 

[mvincent]

You don't need a sunblade if you use Oversized TWF as Hyp mentioned.

Correct. My advice was for any play groups that don't use that supplement (i.e. all my own groups use only the core SRD).

 

[Quartz]

Consider a 9th level character wielding two picks without PA. With TWF, ITWF, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, Improved Critical, and Weapon Mastery for d4+6 damage, crit on 19-20 x4. 20 Str (buffed) for +5, +3 weapon. Normal damage is d4+14. On a confirmed crit, that's 4d4+56. Expected damage is 21.5 HP per fully successful strike. And a 9th level character has 4 attacks. That's not too shabby, but PA makes it really nasty.

 

[Darklone]

IMHO the biggest problem with Power Attack is not the +2 per -1 but the inherent advantage of twohanded weapons compared to TWF fighters. Move, attack, kill.

 

[BryonD]

QFT. We still use 3.0 power attack in all our games, even though everything else went over to 3.5.

This thread, however, shows that the 3.5 change did exactly what it was supposed to do.

In 3.0 PA was BEST used by a two weapon fighter and, because of the base 1.5 STR multiplier it gave the least cost effective return for 2Handed fighters. Which is exactly the opposite of the archetype the feat is intended to produce. In 3.5 you get 2hand weapon fighters using PA, as expected.

This won't change anything if you just don't like the mechanical result. But it DOES achieve the intended goal very well.

FWIW, I don't mind the no light weapons rule. Being able to hit as hard as you can is one thing, but getting a +1 per -1 trade off is another.
A rule that anyone can gain a +1 damage per -2 to hit with any weapon and no feat required would be a nice gap filler.

 

[BryonD]

IMHO the biggest problem with Power Attack is not the +2 per -1 but the inherent advantage of twohanded weapons compared to TWF fighters. Move, attack, kill.

My experience is that, in play, it works out a lot better however.

Very frequently a lot of the mega damage hits end up being blow-through.
A 25 HP monster is just as dead if the dual wielder hits it three times for 12 points a hit or the greataxe guy power attacks for 80. And there are exceptions both ways. The greataxe IS better when facing one big monster. But the 2 weapon guy shines when taking on large numbers of small monsters. I LIKE that each shines at different times.

 

[IanB]

Consider a 9th level character wielding two picks without PA. With TWF, ITWF, Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec, Improved Critical, and Weapon Mastery for d4+6 damage, crit on 19-20 x4. 20 Str (buffed) for +5, +3 weapon. Normal damage is d4+14. On a confirmed crit, that's 4d4+56. Expected damage is 21.5 HP per fully successful strike. And a 9th level character has 4 attacks. That's not too shabby, but PA makes it really nasty.

Greater Weapon Specialization requires level 12...