Barbarian and Avenger defenses (Forked Thread: Thaneborn Barbarians)

[Keenath]

What I meant is that the Pursuit kicker damage only happens if the target willingly moves away. If the DM decides not to do that, then the party can't do anything about it; forced movement won't work.

Ohhh, okay. You said "negate" when you really meant "deny". (Negate suggests removing something that was previously there, while deny implies not getting it in the first place.) That's what threw me.

In this situation, the Pursuit Avenger is going to have to really work to get any bonus at all.

That's true, I agree; on the other hand, a lot of Pursuit powers are specifically designed to drag one enemy away and keep him isolated (Sequestering Strike, Inexorable Pursuit), or to punish other enemies for bunching up around you (Avenging Echo, Deflecting Thunder), so there's that.

Or you can have a look at the level 15 daily Oath of Divine Lightning. I love no-win situations...

 

[Keenath]

Picks the OoE target (especially from a lack of knowledge about the targets). Without Refocus Enmity, this completely hoses the avenger damage potential until the party gets the sworn enemy.

That's true, and it's a very good reason for the Avenger not to blow his oath as soon as battle starts. Once he sees an enemy ripe for isolating, that's when the oath comes out.

The avenger has to focus on a single target, he's less able to take advantage of party positions - front lines, flanks, etc.

Yes and no. He doesn't get flanking as often unless the party is really good at positioning, but he still needs to use the party's lines to set up his adjacent-to-only-one-enemy schtick. A fighter with Tide of Iron or Footwork Lure, a Warlord, these are best friends to an Avenger just as much as to a rogue.

 

[DracoSuave]

Also, flanking is not as necessary to an avenger as to the rogue. Oath gives a -lot- more of an accuracy bonus than +2. Positioning for oath becomes far more important than flanking.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

I think when you're looking at the avenger, everything needs to be viewed in light of what it will normally do in combat. I mean, the fact that it has such a high AC and a few extra HPs and Healing Surges might look creep-ish, but everything the Avenger can do more or less encourages them to go one-on-one versus a foe. They are huge targets, and can't always count on help from their allies - after all, they need those allies to keep all the other monsters occupied.

Indeed. The main schtick of the avenger is you're going to be going off and beating something into the ground by yourself. Your powers don't hit especially hard, but they do hit often if you're against one thing.

So, there's a good chance you're going to be out of range of heals, so it's a good idea for them to try and ratchet up their defenses, including AC.

Also note that the Armor of Faith does jack all for the other defenses.

Brad