D&D (2024) Bard brainstorm

[lall]

Based on what?

A combination of them being good at skills and their reputation (stereotypically at least) for not taking things too seriously. If bards had no magic, I feel like my bard could still get by and if there was something big he wanted magic-wise, like a Wish, he could potentially eventually get that through his relationships.

 

[Ashrym]

A combination of them being good at skills and their reputation (stereotypically at least) for not taking things too seriously. If bards had no magic, I feel like my bard could still get by and if there was something big he wanted magic-wise, like a Wish, he could potentially eventually get that through his relationships.

Everyone is good at skills. That's what bounded accuracy does. Bards are better at skills, and that's limited to a slight increase for many with a decent increase for a couple. Anyone can build relationships. You should just make a rogue and pick up the musician feat at 1st level. Does what you want better without impacting other players' bards.

It's also never been a thing in DnD, and doesn't match up with the myths and legends on which the class is based.

As it is, there's little reason to play a bard for skills because rogues are better at it, and only lack the small bonus from jack-of-all-trades that's been delayed to a 5th-level ability. Rangers start with the same number of skills and expertise earlier. Expertise is also a single level dip away for other classes who can add a skill at the same time for the multi-classers.

DIET isn't bad for some spell access (it gets tight at higher levels though), but it's the worst application of spell access for bards in any editions so far. A variety of spells from different caster classes part of the class identity. Adding abjuration and selecting spells from the arcane, divine, or primal lists would be a very easy fix for that spell list access. I prefer the choice of which casting list and having divination and enchantment plus 2 or 3 selected schools; those can be 1 addition school of choice at 1st, 5th, and 11th level. That feels like customization withing spell preparation and probably still underpowered. The point is that lack of a versatile spell list negatively impacts the the class draw significantly.

But why would a player play a bard compared to a cleric? Similar role, better healing, full spell access, better armor, plenty of buffs available. The skills and inspiration aren't much of a trade-off after slowing inspiration access down and gutting the spell list.

And why would a player play a bard compared to a wizard or sorcerer? At least spell preparation is a benefit over sorcerers, but they have access to every spell a bard does and more in their selections plus metamagic. Wizards can cast every spell a bard can and more often, modify it to create a better version, swap on the fly with the memorize ritual, cast rituals from the spell book, etc. Both sorcerers and wizards have better defensive options via magic and better at will options in cantrips.

A trade-off of a minor skill bonus to most skills and a decent skill bonus to some skill? Skill bonuses aren't that significant due to the number of skills to which they apply.

Bardic inspiration is typically 2-3 at 1st level in the current system and usually 3-4 per short rest at 5th level (9-12/day standard assumption). Now it's 2 at 1st level, 3 at 5th level (that's a massive loss in the ability), 3 per short rest at 7th level (we could get 15/day standard assumption at 8th level instead of the proposed 9), 4 per short rest (12/day) at 9th level, 5 per short rest (15/day; finally caught up to current 8th level) at 13th level, and 6 per short rest (18/day). Plus superior bardic inspiration at 18th level, which is decent.

The problem one of the most iconic bard abilities (inspiration) takes so long to see much use. Another minor issue is that it looks like bards get more inspiration in the end but that's not true. The epic rules for max scores of 30 instead of 20 means bards would have been getting up to 10 per short rest (30+/day) and could spam inspiration. Minor because 18+ over 6-8 encounters and 2 guaranteed per encounter is still lots.

However, that higher ability score limit further marginalizes skill bonuses because ability scores apply to more checks and the actual bonus would be higher.

Skill bonuses aren't much to trade in to and bardic inspiration doesn't really come on board early enough for the class. Those are the things you claim are worth it regardless of spells. That leaves spell access as a trade off.

Magical secrets is not a bad ability. But it's doesn't happen until 11th level and 15th level. One of those is likely to be used on the arcane spell list for eventual access to wish which would give still give bards less access to the arcane list than wizards who would still be casting all the same spells but better and more often. We're getting to level 15 where bards can prep 2 spells from another list that wizards can't access. At 15th level wizards have created modified versions of 1st and 2nd-level spells that can spam at will using spell mastery.

Bards getting access to a few more spells with magical secrets is late and allows using the same resource on new options. Other classes are increasing resources. Some of them by a lot.

The other spell access ability is Songs of Restoration. This is less spells added by other similar mechanics like oaths, domains, and patron spells. It's also spells to which bards already had access. The UA took away something that was available, gave it back at higher levels than before, cost a shared resource again, and in the process removed the bonus healing from Song of Rest. That's another net loss for the class.

So we have this UA bard for 2024 that delayed the variety of spell selection unavailable to other arcane casters significantly, delayed bardic inspiration progression significantly, lost bonus abilities, and is classified under the expertise identity when expertise isn't that strong to begin with. The UA even gave bonus abilities for lore checks to clerics and wizards even though that's another bardic knowledge is another bardic ability lost where bards need to use skill bonus abilities to replicate their own ability.

What you're saying is the strongest ability of a gutted class would be fine if we took that away too? Are you trolling? Do you think bards are just NPC's the players are pretending to play? ;-)

The classes was nerfed too hard in response to opening up spell preparation while other classes were buffed. A class that's a jack-of-all-trades still needs to be reasonably good at enough areas to be worthwhile. Being good at skills but not the best doesn't do that. A renaissance class needs to be capable of developing well enough in multiple areas to be worthwhile even if that's not all areas. Being good at skills but not the best (rogue) does not do that.

I'm glad you enjoy a skill based gameplay style. I think there is room in the game for that without the combat benefits or spells tied to it. I doubt it would be popular but I think there's design space. If that's the bard then it's not just removing spells. There would need to be a much bigger overhaul of the class.

 

[lall]

I’d play a rogue if they were the best at skills. They have a higher floor but lore bards have a higher ceiling and I prefer the latter.

 

[mellored]

Random idea.

Bards are half casters.
But have access to all spell lists.

 

[Ashrym]

I’d play a rogue if they were the best at skills. They have a higher floor but lore bards have a higher ceiling and I prefer the latter.

Bards don't have a better ceiling without the lore bard high level benefit. Reliable talent creates a better success rate by eliminating low rolls and it's better because going lore for a higher ceiling doesn't change bounded accuracy -- the bard typically just exceeds the same DC by a bigger number for the same effect when the high ceiling does hit.

Random idea.

Bards are half casters.
But have access to all spell lists.

I prefer the UA warlock chassis going that route. Replace mystic arcanum with magical secrets for the same effect as mystic arcanum, and add a bunch of songs in place of invocations. That gives the variety of magic, access to higher level spells per some of the powerful caster styles, an a lot of opportunity in songs as a combined system more like 3.x was.

I prefer full the 5e bard as is, but I can see potential in that design.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If someone really wanted Bards to use Psionics, they would have created one and posted it on DMs Guild by now.

If there ISN'T a psionic Bard on the DMs Guild you can use... that pretty much tells us it is a niche idea that no one cares enough about to warrant working on. And thus WotC won't spend their time working on it either.

At least the Warlord fans have tried making their own Warlords seven ways to Sunday over these past nine years and thus shown WotC there might be a small market for one.

 

[lall]

If the 5.5 bard takes a cantrip with Magical Secrets, it eats up one of their cantrip slots if I’m reading 5.5 Magical Secrets right. So a 5.0 lore bard could have 12 cantrips, whereas max for 5.5 bard is 4. That’s a bit of a change.

 

[Ashrym]

If the 5.5 bard takes a cantrip with Magical Secrets, it eats up one of their cantrip slots if I’m reading 5.5 Magical Secrets right. So a 5.0 lore bard could have 12 cantrips, whereas max for 5.5 bard is 4. That’s a bit of a change.

It is, but bards in that UA can also swap out cantrips as part of spell preparation. All spell casters could until the playtest 5 packet came out where cantrip selection was separated from spell prep of 1st-level spells and higher. Just take cultist as a background at 1st level or another background that gives magic initiate and then you'll have 4 cantrips immediately.

Spending magical secrets on the arcane list later gives wish and you can downtime a book of shadows with it for 2 more cantrips and some more rituals. Cantrips aren't hard to pick up. A human sorcerer or tomepact warlock with the cultist background who swaps out the bonus feat for another magic initiate can start the game at 1st level with 9 cantrips.

I doubt spell casters will continue to be able to swap out cantrips on a long rest because of the latest playtest UA.

What would you do with 12 cantrips anyway? I would spend 0-1 magical secrets on a cantrip. A damaging cantrip to do poor damage instead of abysmal damage was okay with extra magical secrets or spirit session because that's extra over magical secrets in general. Most bards at 10th level need those magical secrets to fill out their spell list a bit, and have enough slots that adding cantrips makes a lot less sense. Plus they have 4 cantrips at the same level and extra attack or bonus weapon damage are more useful.

Spirit session is another example of a bard ability basically given to wizards in the form of the memorize spell ritual. Except wizards get it a level earlier, don't have the school restrictions but does have a class list restriction, have to swap a spell out, and can do it multiple times per day.

 

[Ashrym]

I decided I was over-complicating my changes to fix my concerns with the UA bard, which were mostly the spell selection restrictions and lack of inspiration at lower levels. This is my revised and more simple correction I've been playing with to address those concerns.

Bard Level​	Class Features​
1​	Bardic Inspiration, Spellcasting​
2​	Expertise, Magical Secrets​
3​	Bard Subclass​
4​	Feat​
5​	Jack of All Trades​
6​	Subclass Feature​
7​	Font of Inspiration​
8​	Feat​
9​	Expertise​
10​	Subclass Feature​
11​	Improved Magical Secrets​
12​	Feat​
13​	​
14​	Subclass Feature​
15​	Improved Magical Secrets​
16​	Feat​
17​	​
18​	Superior Bardic Inspiration​
19​	Feat​
20​	Epic Boon​

That's almost the same list but the names have been altered slightly. The changes to the UA are....

Change tool proficiencies to none.

Add the musician feat to bardic inspiration as a bonus feat. If the character already has the musician feat from another source (like background) then the number of allies to whom the bard can grant heroic inspiration doubles to twice the character's proficiency bonus and the bard does gain 3 additional tool proficiencies regardless of being a non-repeatable feat. What I like about this is that every character has the option to take the feat and inspire others but the bard has that extra benefit with the bardic inspiration die, there's more inspiration to go around, and the feat plus the BI dice have synergy to work together.

Add the ability to select feats with the mage tag to spellcasting. A spellcaster with that spell progression who cannot take those feats seems weird.

Replace songs of restoration with magical secrets. Magical secrets is a selection from a list of thematic spell groups gained at levels 2, 4, 5, 8, and 10 respectively. The names have the potential for thematic characteristics as well.

• Songs of Restoration: healing word, lesser restoration, mass healing word, freedom of movement, greater restoration
• Chants of Protection: protection from good and evil, augury, dispel magic, death ward, dispel evil and good
• Words of Battle: heroism, magic weapon, crusader's mantle, stoneskin, circle of power
• Melodies of Nature: animal friendship, locate animals or plants, conjure animals, dominate beast, commune with nature
• Riddles of the Cursed: hex, crown of madness, bestow curse, compulsion, geas
• Whispers of the Dead: ray of sickness, ray of enfeeblement, speak with the dead, blight, contagion

Improved magical secrets is the same as magical secrets and further magical secrets from the UA. What I like about this is it gives magical secrets a flow that progresses through the class a lot more and leans into a more thematic character. This also removes the forced healing spells in that choice.

Lists and names still subject to workshopping it.

The overall effect is to lean more into inspiration and spell variety. It'll be interesting to see if vicious mockery and dissonant whispers follows the later trend of being bard spells always prepared similar to some of the 5th UA packet spells.

 

[Marandahir]

I feel like they gimped the Bard's healing capacity for the quixotic sake of the Arcane Spell List.

They claimed to fix it by replacing Song of Rest with Songs of Rest, giving us access to healing spells through a class feature instead of our spell list, but that took the place of the Bard's critical role as the out-of-combat healer. The character who makes the entire party do better throughout the day.

This seems to coincide with WotC's general direction the last few years of resurrecting the 5MWD and killing options that incentivised taking short rests.

To that end, I'd keep Song of Rest in, and improve the disincentives for nova-casting and the incentives for continuing adventures throughout the day and taking short rests along the way.