Bards - The Greatest of All Classes

[gizmo33]

Your main problem is that your definition of bardic knowledge as an akashic memory ("the entirety of all sentient knowledge" "any non-written source of knowledge") is not accurate. This fuels all my disagreement with you. I'll reiterate: If you want an akashic memory, play an AU akashic.

Fair enough, but my definition of bardic knowledge would EXCLUDE the bit about "what did Odin whisper in the ear of dead Balder" - bards wouldn't know that. And so I don't think I go as far as akashic memory - assuming I understand what you mean by that.

You're right though, I think it's fair to say that my definition of bardic knowledge is very broad - but I do not think this is without merit. I maintain that the societies that believed in bardic knowledge believed that it covered everything (with the exception of a few things, like what I mentioned above).

I also think that in a game where characters can cast Wish spells, it's fair to look at deities as an example of the upper bounds of bardic power.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, anyone have any insight into why they even stuck that in? It seems completely unnecessary. There's only one thing that a first level character might want to know before going into the WLD:

Spoiler

You can't get out

...which is not something that a 1st level bard should be able to glean, even on a natural 20, it being--as they say--a deliberately obscure and hidden place.

But once you're in there, fighting xill and demons and whatnot, some bardic knowledge checks would help put together some clues that might lead to insights about the design of the place, keys to overcoming major obstacles, and other bits of useful knowledge about specific inhabitants. Did Mr. Xill get outcast from his people? Why? What might this information tell you about what he wants out of life, and might be willing to bargain for?

It seems completely unnecessary to just slam the door on bards like that.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Fair enough, but my definition of bardic knowledge would EXCLUDE the bit about "what did Odin whisper in the ear of dead Balder" - bards wouldn't know that. And so I don't think I go as far as akashic memory - assuming I understand what you mean by that.

You're right though, I think it's fair to say that my definition of bardic knowledge is very broad - but I do not think this is without merit. I maintain that the societies that believed in bardic knowledge believed that it covered everything (with the exception of a few things, like what I mentioned above).

I also think that in a game where characters can cast Wish spells, it's fair to look at deities as an example of the upper bounds of bardic power.

Deities are an example of deific divine power, first and foremost, before bardic power. That's why they are a bad example. Epic-level bards like Taliesin are best used as an upper bound for bards for the same reason that the Epic Alhandra is used as an example Paladin in the ELH instead of the god Heironeous.

 

[gizmo33]

Oh, I know enough about bards to do them "justice."

Trust me on that.

You know what they say... "Those who can't do... sing about it for pennies."


Wulf

Oh for shame, Wulf ! Were a I real bard, I would sing such a satire about you that blisters would rise on your skin from it's power. But then I guess someone schooled on bards from 3E wouldn't recognize what I just said. So anyway, about those pennies...

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Oh, I know enough about bards to do them "justice."

Trust me on that.

You know what they say... "Those who can't do... sing about it for pennies."


Wulf

Ok, Wulf. I'll remember this next time I'm pimping Grim Tales

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Ok, Wulf. I'll remember this next time I'm pimping Grim Tales

Oh, my bad. Is that a mandolin in your pic?

I thought it was some sort of throwing club.

Or a gourd.

 

[tarchon]

I believe the original post stemmed from the sentence in World's Largest Dungeon that stated that Bardic Knowledge was useless with regards to WLD. Which is, by itself, really bad design. Good adventure design takes the character's abilities into account, they don't just handwave them away.

I agree - that's just bad design. The useful way to handle it is to specify a couple oblique references that bardic music could get and control the information that way, like
"You recall a puzzling fragment of a poem from an old parchment that mentions 'snuffing flaming elves like candles,' which now makes a lot more sense to you."

 

[gizmo33]

I agree - that's just bad design. The useful way to handle it is to specify a couple oblique references that bardic music could get and control the information that way, like
"You recall a puzzling fragment of a poem from an old parchment that mentions 'snuffing flaming elves like candles,' which now makes a lot more sense to you."

IMO you say this as a modern who equates bardic lore with "oblique" riddles the same way a cave man would confuse a math textbook with magic. I would suggest that to a bard, such statements would not be as oblique as they are to the uninitiated, and that a bard with a good grasp of his lore would know the exact meaning of the verse describing the "flaming elves" was specifically referring to (assuming a bardic knowledge check, of course). There's nothing imprecise about bardic lore but it requires an education in the analogies and metaphors of a culture that modern people aren't familiar with. "Kennings" as they are called when referring to Old English lore, are a way of describing something that sounds like riddles and obliqueness unless you and I. It's the alphabet of bardic lore.

I definitely think that a bard's ability to cross-reference and analyze their knowledge should be comparable to that of a sage if one is to do them justice (unless you follow Wulf), and that suggesting that orally transmitted lore is imprecise is a bias of a modern, literate age that understandably believes in it's own superiority as have all other socieities. And whose mundane opinions, I find, should not be taken too seriously when designing classes for a fantasy roleplaying game.

 

[gizmo33]

"You recall a puzzling fragment of a poem from an old parchment"

And have you read nothing of the ravings of the lunatic Gizmo? Why must you all continue to insist that bardic lore takes a back seat to written knowledge? Or imply that bardic knowledge derives from written knowledge when bards hold the opinion that the exact opposite is true! The bards knew the exact and full meaning of the verse. It started out life as a bardic saga, written down by a scribe who barely understood it's meaning because if he did he'd be a bard and would have no reason to have written it down. It would be like a wizard memorizing a spell out of a spellbook written by a barbarian.

 

[pdkoning]

I just want to tell you that after playing a number of fighter/ranger types I once tried a bard (just for the fun), but that bard lasted about 1.5 years, until the campaign stopped. Now I play a Divine Bard (of the Silver Flame) from Unearthed Arcana in an Eberron campaing.

All Bards I played just rock, they are the diplomat, the nice guy, the healer, the source of knowledge, the source of inspiration. They are just not that combat-oriented (except for my Bard-Archer).

The Bard is my favourite class because you can make them almost everything you wish them to be.