D&D (2024) Bastions in the 2024 DMs Guide

[OptionalRule]

I've been mulling over this new Bastions system, and I'm feeling pretty conflicted about it. The concept sounds cool on paper, but I've got some real concerns about how it'll actually work in play.

I do like the general idea of players having their own base. It's a classic fantasy trope for a reason. But I'm skeptical about how well it fits with the current edition's overall design.

My biggest worry is timing. We all know most campaigns peter out before level 7. So if Bastions come into play around level 5, you'll barely have time to get it set up before the campaign ends. That feels like a lot of wasted potential.

Then there's the power level issue. Modern D&D characters are absolute powerhouses by mid-levels. It's already tough to keep them connected to the mundane world. I'm not seeing how Bastions fix that disconnect. Are we supposed to care about local bandits or infrastructure projects when we're off plane-hopping and fighting demigods? The scale just feels off.

I keep comparing this to how 1st Edition handled strongholds. You'd typically get one around 7th level, which worked because characters were less godlike and it took ages to reach those levels. The current edition's rapid leveling and high power curve don't seem to mesh well with the concept.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I keep comparing this to how 1st Edition handled strongholds. You'd typically get one around 7th level, which worked because characters were less godlike and it took ages to reach those levels. The current edition's rapid leveling and high power curve don't seem to mesh well with the concept.

See, I feel 5E notably is less godlike than 1e. Let's take a common fireball target: the troll. A 1e & 2e troll was 33hp (hd6+6), 3e was 68hp (6d8+36) and a 5e troll is 84hp (8d10 + 40). A 1e fireball from a 5th level caster is 33hp so ~50% of a troll's hp, A 5e fireball 28hp is 33%. A 5th level longsword fighter in 1e could do d8+1 (5.5hp) at 15% of a troll vs 5e d8+4 (8.5) 10% of a troll. Even the lowly kobold has doubled its hp (2.25hp d8/2 vs 5hp 2d6-2) so that it takes 2 daggers or 2 magic missiles to kill.

Add in 1e spells autoscaling, so many additional slots, no concentration constraint, long durations, and single-save spells, and 1e casters were vastly more powerful than 5e once they left the glass cannon zone.

5e may level faster but the relative power level mean the levels are weaker. A 5th level 1e character is much closer to a 8th or 9th level 5e character from the stand point of the kinds of monsters they can fight.

 

[OptionalRule]

5e may level faster but the relative power level mean the levels are weaker. A 5th level 1e character is much closer to a 8th or 9th level 5e character from the stand point of the kinds of monsters they can fight.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[Micah Sweet]

See, I feel 5E notably is less godlike than 1e. Let's take a common fireball target: the troll. A 1e & 2e troll was 33hp (hd6+6), 3e was 68hp (6d8+36) and a 5e troll is 84hp (8d10 + 40). A 1e fireball from a 5th level caster is 33hp so ~50% of a troll's hp, A 5e fireball 28hp is 33%. A 5th level longsword fighter in 1e could do d8+1 (5.5hp) at 15% of a troll vs 5e d8+4 (8.5) 10% of a troll. Even the lowly kobold has doubled its hp (2.25hp d8/2 vs 5hp 2d6-2) so that it takes 2 daggers or 2 magic missiles to kill.

Add in 1e spells autoscaling, so many additional slots, no concentration constraint, long durations, and single-save spells, and 1e casters were vastly more powerful than 5e once they left the glass cannon zone.

5e may level faster but the relative power level mean the levels are weaker. A 5th level 1e character is much closer to a 8th or 9th level 5e character from the stand point of the kinds of monsters they can fight.

But think about how long that 1e character took to reach 5th level, and what they had to survive. You sure as heck felt like you earned it.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

While I agree weith it, That's not a point I made. Again, we are talking about 2024. What in wotc's hype & coverage of the 2024 books do you feel is clearly directed at GM's & the needs of GM's rather than the desires of players?

There is only one currently available book

2024 Player's Handbook Digital + Physical Bundle | D&D

dndstore.wizards.com

Yes I know you did not make that point. But it's something that you clearly agree with by most posts you have made.
The DMG and MM are directed at the DM.

Also I said name the Last Player Facing Book in 5e that is not the PHB.

Most books are aimed at the DM. Name the last Player Facing book released for 5e, that is not the new PHB.

Do it, name the last book intended largely for Players.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

But think about how long that 1e character took to reach 5th level, and what they had to survive. You sure as heck felt like you earned it.

It depended. Characters could level up very fast if they found a big enough treasure haul.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes I know you did not make that point. But it's something that you clearly agree with by most posts you have made .

Also I said name the Last Player Facing Book in 5e that is not the PHB.

Do it name the last book intended largely for Players.

Time flows in one direction, you are confused about the direction of time in relation to your post tagging me earlier. Beyond that.

 

[Distracted DM]

"This book about hosting a party is just full of things for your guests to do! Where's the stuff that makes my life easier?"

Wild idea, but what if one of the things that those mavericks at WotC think makes people want to DM is the chance to facilitate their players doing stuff they think is fun? I gave my group a Bastion without them asking because I thought they'd like it, and I was right. Next session they're getting a surprise airship. It's more work for me, but I'm the DM - that's sort of what it's all about. I do most of the work and what I get out of it is a fun time with my group.

... Wouldn't it be better to make the host's job easier too? Might that lead to more hosting and more hosts?

We assume the host enjoys hosting because they're doing it, yeah. Or they just enjoy parties and hosting is the only way that parties would happen.

But adding things for your guests to do is anything from playing games and dancing, to letting guests play football inside. The host is probably going to be having less fun if their guests are running around breaking things as a form of entertainment.

I'm not saying either way what the DMG will end up as, but the analogy you used just seemed an odd choice considering, yeah, the host should get help from the party company they hired.

 

[Lanefan]

"This book about hosting a party is just full of things for your guests to do! Where's the stuff that makes my life easier?"

Wild idea, but what if one of the things that those mavericks at WotC think makes people want to DM is the chance to facilitate their players doing stuff they think is fun?

I think the ask here is that WotC then tell those wannabe DMs how best to do that facilitation.

 

[kigmatzomat]

But think about how long that 1e character took to reach 5th level, and what they had to survive. You sure as heck felt like you earned it.

Is it more or less time than getting to 8th in 5e? I mean, posts above say that most games end before 7. So that implies that 5e 8th is longer than 1e 5th.

I will note, my logic also ,wans a 5th level 5e character getting a bastion is akin to a 1e character getting a house at 3rd level.