D&D 5E BattleMaster vs Champion, an analysis

[happyhermit]

So are you implying that divine smite doesn't get double damage on a crit?

Because the rules for critical hits say roll the damage dice of the attack twice. And Jeremy Crawford clarified that the rules do in fact say you double the dice for them.

Critical hits clearly states that it would apply;

If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's sneak attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.

There is no way it would be affected.

 

[Oofta]

Here is the relevant wording for crits
"Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together."

Here is the relevant wording for GWF
"when you roll a 1 or a 2 for the damage die of an attack..."

Holy thread sideline Batman!

For what it's worth, if you're going to quote the rules you should probably quote them all.

GREAT WEAPON FIGHTING
When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the new roll is a 1 or a 2.

CRITICAL HITS
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the
attack's damage dice twice and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal.​

Critical hits then goes on to clarify that any extra damage from a sneak attack would also be rerolled.

I read it as rerolling 1's and 2's for the melee weapon only. Seems like according to Crawford's answer to the question that he agrees as well.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Well, there have been a couple other replies, but to answer the question, no, I do not consider smite damage the same as superiority damage because superiority is clearly defined as superiority dice, and smite damage is just add more damage.

But really, that's not important. We have a different interpretation, and that's OK since we don't play at each other's tables. Do whatever you want to do. However, we now know the right way of applying it, so I ask again. Knowing the right way, are you going to account for that in your analysis? Or are you still going to do your preferred way?

 

[Ashkelon]

Well, there have been a couple other replies, but to answer the question, no, I do not consider smite damage the same as superiority damage because superiority is clearly defined as superiority dice, and smite damage is just add more damage.

But really, that's not important. We have a different interpretation, and that's OK since we don't play at each other's tables. Do whatever you want to do. However, we now know the right way of applying it, so I ask again. Knowing the right way, are you going to account for that in your analysis? Or are you still going to do your preferred way?

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...eapon-fighting-apply-to-superiority-die-rolls

See there, the damage difference isn't significant enough to make a real difference.

In fact, the difference basically doesn't matter at all of the battlemaster is primarily using commanders strike, riposte, and precise strike which are the best DPR per superiority dice maneuvers anyway.

 

[dco]

I don't like the dice mechanics of the Battlemaster and the need for short rests, I prefer the Champion, bonuses to skills and initiative and healing in combat if you reach a high level.
It also depends, if you only want damage and a party member can give you advantage... on the other hand the battlemaster can help in a lot of more ways than damage in a fight.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Detailed analysis of Volos guide to monsters and the MM plotting AC .

There is a big fallacy going on here: the average AC of monsters in the MM or VgtM and the average AC of enemies encountered are not the same.
You need to weight the monster manual's AC values by appearance in a süecific campaign.
In my campaigns humanoids are prevelent enemies. At least in fights that matter. And there AC is usually 14 or higher. Medium armor or dex and a shield are not untypical.

@rerolling 1s and 2s: there is at least a sage advice if not an errata telling you that you only reroll 1s and 2s on the weapon damage dice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

There is a big fallacy going on here: the average AC of monsters in the MM or VgtM and the average AC of enemies encountered are not the same.

Not necessarily the same. The latter can vary from table to table. The former is a single value that would change only with errata - which makes it a common bases for comparison, if not a representative one.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not necessarily the same. The latter can vary from table to table. The former is a single value that would change only with errata - which makes it a common bases for comparison, if not a representative one.

Of course. I just assumed... hopefully not totally wrong... that many opponents are humanoids. In the modules I am playing many encounters have humanoids in it. And if you encounter humanoids with lower AC they may be spellcasters with shield spell.
Humanoids are also encountered in packs and more of them in a place while non humanoids are often one time events. You usually encounter only one gelatineous cube in your adventurous career while you may face a bunch of hobgoblins.
Maybe someone with the will to do it could calculate the average AC from the PotA encounter table. I think that may be a better metric for the average encountered ACs in a typical adveture. And then maybe you could calculate the average AC of the various boss encounters. I strongly believe AC is higher than 14.25 on average.

 

[Ashkelon]

The average AC is higher than the 14.25 average. You have to calculate average AC at each CR. AC trends upward by about +1 for every 3.5 CR. The 14.25 number comes about from the fact that there are dramatically more low CR monsters than high ones. Average AC of the entire MM is a useless number.

If you actually plot average AC for each CR though you will find ACs steadily increase in a near linear trend. AC 13 to 15 tends to be AC faced at CR 5, AC 15 to 17 at CR 11, and AC 20 to 22 at CR 20.

 

[LapBandit]

Something to consider: Kryx has put tens of hours into his DPR balance spreadsheet which has been vetted over and over again. Here is the link.