Battlerager: Experiences?

[Regicide]

The key to being a good defender is to give enemies a basic choice: waste attacks against me, or try to attack my buddies and be punished horribly for it. That way, no matter what the DM does, you win.

So, you've now put the enemy in the position where it's bad to attack the defender and bad to attack someone other than the defender. The good option is to not attack, but to run. Yet, the monster doesn't run. Why? Because the DM is playing them like suicidal lemmings and serving them to you on a silver platter in fights that the players are very likey to win, the monsters very likely to lose, but they fight anyway.

Hence being a defender isn't about making the choice of attacking another party member less appealing to enemies because it's already completely unappealing since fighting at all is a guaranteed death warrant. The role of defender, if there is any quality that could really be said about it, is probably damage mitigation.

No sense relying on the DM doing something dumb when you have the tools required to win even if the DM plays smart.

The DM playing smart means having the monster run and get enough allies that it has overwhelming odds in it's favour instead of the odds being overwhelmingly in the party's. Actually, thats the monster playing smart. The DM playing smart means grinding stupid monsters against the party in such a way that the party has fun. This means letting the defender defend, the controller control and the strikers kicking serious behind.

 

[GoLu]

To avoid further threadcrapping on my part, I've forked the defender discussion over this way.

 

[Spatula]

Heh. That has nothing to do with the role of defender.

Defenders don't defend their companions?

Mmm, no. They use simple AI because of custom and type of game more than anything. People enjoy beating up simple things instead of dealing with complex behaviour. The AI available even back when Everquest was made is MORE than sufficient to brutalize players if the designers so wanted. People don't like monsters running away, grabbing every mob in the zone then coming back and turning them into goo.

...wut? MMO tank characters have what do with trains?

 

[FireLance]

But look -- most ranged attacks target non-AC defenses. In other words, the defenses that are just as weak on a plate-clad greatweapon fighter as on your a lighter-armored BRV fighter. Fireballs don't care how big your armor class is. In other words, against ranged attacks, a BRV is merely no weaker than a standard fighter! That is not a good argument for BRV being balanced; it's support for the view that the BRV is stronger than an average fighter!

Depends on the ranged attack. Weapon-type ranged attacks (bows, javelins, daggers) tend to target AC. As for the non-AC defenses, battleragers will want to improve Strength and Constitution, so Reflex and Will are likely to suffer.

 

[Nail]

But those are conscious choices you are making, the battlerager build in no way forces you to make these choices.

If you run the numbers, going hammer for a BRV Ftr is a higher damage output than going longsword. So the point still stands.

...unless I've made a math error, which is possible. Corrections?

 

[Lord Sessadore]

If you run the numbers, going hammer for a BRV Ftr is a higher damage output than going longsword. So the point still stands.

...unless I've made a math error, which is possible. Corrections?

Is that with hit chance taken into account? Because if you didn't multiply by hit chance, hammer will always have higher damage than longsword.

I don't have time to run the numbers myself at the moment, though.

 

[Nail]

Is that with hit chance taken into account?

Yup.

BRV Ftr, Str 16, Chain, (including Crits):

Longsword: Atk 50%, Dam 1d8+3+1 = 4.425 DPR
Warhammer: Atk 45%, Dam 1d10+3+2 = 4.95 DPR

 

[keterys]

I'm not sure DPR is really the goal... I mean, pushing, gaining temp hp, etc are good things too.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

Switched my fighter over to the Battle Rager at 4th level. He is now 6th, closing in on 7th. I've chosen to forgo the bonus damage in favor of wearing plate armor for the higher AC. I use a warhammer and shield and have by 1 point the highest AC in the party. I have 18s in Str and Con (following my level 4 bump).

I can say that the BR variant is SIGNIFICANTLY tougher than the standard fighter type. I wouldn't go so far as to say its game breaking as our game has been progressing fine thus far. . . but I will say that I would understand if WotC felt it needed a nerf to bring it back in line with the other fighter options.

I do feel the the BR mechanic would have made a better mechanic for a Barbarian, vs. the fighter. I wonder though if the power boost from the BR was a deliberate bump by WotC to upgun the fighter somewhat. Now my fighter is a master of melee combat. . . before, not so much.

I still perform well as a defender and I'm not sure why people are saying the BR can't make a good defender.

I don't see that getting the bonus damage from wearing the lighter armor is at all worth it. Sure it would be nice. . . but you gain so much from the heavy armor stacked on top of your THP gain, that its definitely the superior way to go.

Overall. . . the BR is very powerful. Definitely the best approach to take with a fighter. Which means its either in need of a nerf. . . or WotC felt that the fighter class in general needed a boost.

 

[Nail]

Last session I got to play my BRV Ftr (“Nail”), so I thought I’d post the numbers here from a combat with an “altered” kuthik horde. FWIW, my fellow PCs were a ranger(bow), a taclord, a wizard, and a dwarf cleric.

Combat Totals:
Nail’s HP: 44
Damage Taken: 85
Healing (Second Wind + Healing Word): 55
THP from Cleric: 9
THP from BRV powers: 20

Round 1:

• Nail hit with 3 ranged attacks plus ongoing Poison 5 plus blinded (25 hp damage) Note that ranged and ongoing damage don’t grant THP.
• Received 9 THP from cleric
• Nail misses attack, fails poison save, fails blinded save

Round 2:

• Nail hit with 2 ranged attacks and missed with 1 melee attack , plus ongoing Poison 5 plus kruthik aura damage (17 hp damage)
• Cleric uses Healing Word on Nail.
• Nail misses attack, spends action point and misses with attack Yeah, I know.....
• Saves vs ongoing poison and blindness

Round 3:

• Nail hit with 1 ranged attack and blinded (13 hp damage)
• Nail <amazingly> hits with cleave, misses with a CC
• Nail hit with melee attack (5 hp damage) and gains his first THP from BRV (5 THP)
• Nail saves vs blindness

Round 4:

• Nail hit with 1 ranged attack and blinded and 1 melee attack and poisoned (17 hp damage) (5 THP)
• Nail uses Second Wind (x2 cloak of walking wounded), misses with a CC.
• Nail saves vs. ongoing poison and blindness

Round 5:

• Nail hit with 1 melee attack, missed with 1 ranged (which would have been blindness, BTW) and 1 melee attack. (8 hp damage) (5 THP).
• Nail hits with his cleave attack and an OA.
• Nail rejoices, as he doesn’t have to save vs Blindness.

Round 6+:

• Nail missed with 1 melee attack.
• Nail his with Crushing Surge (+5 THP)
• Remaining Enemies flee and are cut down by other party members.
• Nail ends combat with 39 hp