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BattleStar Galactica S2/E7 08.26.05

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Personally, I believe Cylons are no longer thinking machines - maybe even the Centurions weren´t - they are sentient, and as long as humanity isn´t willing to see that, the Cylons have a valid (even if not morally right) reason to hate and destroy them.

And the humans are trying to destroy them...well they are not they are trying to flee them since they are waging a war of genocide against humanity. So the Humans didn't think the Cylons were sentient but they were sending regular ambassadors to that meeting station in the miniseries to try and talk to the cylons and make a peace. The Cylons, sentient or not, blow that up and launch a suprise nuclear holocaust...yeah the Cylons have reason to hate humanity. :\
 

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Flexor the Mighty! said:
Anyone who isn't working towards the goal of safeguarding the fleet and by extension humanity is a threat to that very survival. So for example I'd have spaced Zarek as well due to his actions, or imprisoned him again at the very least. Endangering the fleet would be a capital crime so would be being a toaster. I doubt most people would have a problem with that if they thought such actions would keep them safe from a concrete threat of death coming at any second.

Except that it's not that simple, IMHO. Zarek has a LOT of loyal followers, many of whom believe they owe him their liberty and what priveleges they enjoy. Kill him and you've got dissension in the fleet. Who mines your water and does your base menial labor then? We just saw one follower so dedicated he was willing to attempt to assinate the president's top aide and one of the highest ranking officers in the fleet (and join in a plot to assinate it's most senior officer).

At the same time, you have thousands of civilians who are need to be reassured that they have some sort of future. Adama knew that when he told the big lie and Roslin knows it, too. Turn the fleet into an armed prison camp where ANYONE can be a cylon...and within hours, there will be lots of dead people who 'might have been' a cylon. The fleet will rapidly divide and self-destruct. I'm not sure why you're suprised at Roslin's actions, either. She's been fairly consistent with the cylon agents. She considers them like an asp clutched to the chest: they lie, they tempt and if you hold them too long, they'll bite. As far as she's concerned, it's in their nature and if you keep them around, you're inviting the consequences. Don't mistake Roslin's egalitarian views with pure touchy-feely sentimentality...they're not the same thing. The last time she listened to a cylon, she suspected Adama of being a cylon. The last time Adama talked to a cylon face-to-face, he got a chestful of lead. I'm fairly sure that when push comes to shove, she's more than ready to toss Boomer-C out an airlock, and Helo too, if necessary. Frankly, he's damaged goods.

IMHO, a big part of the message of this episode was: "we have to be more flexible if we're going to survive." Adama didn't say, 'it's all right to do what you did'; he said 'I understand why you did what you did, and while I'm not happy, I'm not angry any more and we have important things to do'.

Poor Kara...I think she honestly thought they were going to stage a rescue operation. Or maybe she just really, really hoped it was so. Wonder what, if anything, will happen with those quixotic folks. I'll kind of miss the Caprica interludes, now that they're over.
 

WizarDru said:
Don't mistake Roslin's egalitarian views with pure touchy-feely sentimentality...they're not the same thing. The last time she listened to a cylon, she suspected Adama of being a cylon. The last time Adama talked to a cylon face-to-face, he got a chestful of lead. I'm fairly sure that when push comes to shove, she's more than ready to toss Boomer-C out an airlock, and Helo too, if necessary. Frankly, he's damaged goods.

What right does she have to order Helo thrown out of the airlock? (And, damaged goods? This is the guy who volunteered to stay behind on Caprica to make room for someone he felt the fleet would need more, and unlike most of the main characters, has yet to lie, cheat, cover up, betray, scheme... He might be naive, or blinded by love or hormones, but he's got integrity.)

I agree she's probably capable of it, but it's just another example of what a waste of oxygen she is. On one hand, she'll to go to great lengths to preserve useless institutions like the Quorum of Twelve, or indulge in insanity like elections in the middle of a fight for survival, on the other, whenever she feels like it (or whenever voices in her head tell her to) she'll throw someone out into space, encourage soldiers to mutiny, split the fleet and take a large chunk of it - completely defenseless - to chase a rainbow without considering whether she's playing into the Cylons' hands in some way, or whether her drug addiction is affecting her judgement...

I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.
 

mmu1 said:
This is the guy who volunteered to stay behind on Caprica to make room for someone he felt the fleet would need more, and unlike most of the main characters, has yet to lie, cheat, cover up, betray, scheme... He might be naive, or blinded by love or hormones, but he's got integrity.)

We, as omniscient viewers, know that. How does the president? How does Kara, for that matter? Has anyone proven he's not a cylon plant? To play devil's advocate: three times now, we've seen very convienent rescues on Caprica; Roslin knows she can't trust Boomer; she doesn't know Helo (and didn't Apollo and Starbuck both know her before they knew her to be a cylon...yes, they did, so there's no reason Helo couldn't be a cylon in that regard) and the only person she knows and potentially trusts, Kara, admits to having been held in cylon medical facility where she knows they operated on her and drugged her repeatedly. Luckily, when she returns with a pet cylon in tow, she also brings Helo, a man who draws a gun on Apollo, the straightest arrow she knows, and the most trustworthy man in the fleet (in whose hands she has placed her life several times, now). Yeah, Helo's got an iron-clad reputation, all right. :)

The point is, he's chosen love over duty. He is no longer trustworthy in the eyes of President and likely the fleet. He has been compromised and is damaged goods. That doesn't mean he lacks integrity or is a bad person...but he's also clearly divided; and one day the fleet may suffer for that division. What will Helo do if he thinks Boomer is going to be killed?

mmu1 said:
On one hand, she'll to go to great lengths to preserve useless institutions like the Quorum of Twelve, or indulge in insanity like elections in the middle of a fight for survival, on the other, whenever she feels like it (or whenever voices in her head tell her to) she'll throw someone out into space, encourage soldiers to mutiny, split the fleet and take a large chunk of it - completely defenseless - to chase a rainbow without considering whether she's playing into the Cylons' hands in some way, or whether her drug addiction is affecting her judgement...

I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.

Well, I don't think the writers will EVER state that. I think they'll keep it quite ambigious. Was it an act of god that saved Gaius' butt back in the first season? Depends on your perspective, I suppose. That's as close, I think, as you'll get to the prophecy being proven true or false.

As for the Quorom being useless, clearly neither she nor the Adamas accept that answer. Senior may hate politics, but he recognizes their value. And it's clear that Adama detests the idea of a military state as much or MORE than the president does. As for mutiny...well, we had that argument a while ago, but if RDM is to be believed (and I think he ought to) then technically, the president was in the right and Adama violated the law (as the Colonial system is based on the US system, with the president being the commander in chief). Is it an extremely bad idea of the president to do what she did? I think so...but it wasn't illegal, and certainly not mutiny.

As for taking the fleet: we first have to assume that religion is invalid...something the characters aren't likely to do. Even relatively unreligious characters like Apollo are clearly defensive when Boomer-C talks smack about it. Was it a smart thing to do? Not by a long shot. However, in the long run, what exactly was mankind bound to do? Live as gypsies for ever, until they run out of supplies? Roslin KNEW that they had nowhere to go, and that Adama had told the Big Lie to keep the fleet moving and motivated. She wanted to make the Big Lie into the Big Goal, instead.

That mankind has completely misunderstood and potentially vastly underestimated the cylons motivations and intelligence is another problem entirely. :)
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Personally, I believe Cylons are no longer thinking machines - maybe even the Centurions weren´t - they are sentient, and as long as humanity isn´t willing to see that, the Cylons have a valid (even if not morally right) reason to hate and destroy them.
Humanity didn't even know what the cylons had become before the attack on the colonies. As far as humanity was concerned, the cylon war was over and had been for decades. Likewise, the cylons were gone and hadn't been heard from in just as long. How was humanity to be willing to see that the new cylons were thinking machines when they had no idea they existed? As far as humanity was concerned, the cylons disappeared into the unknown, were not seen or heard from for decades and suddenly reappeared to unleash nuclear genocide on them.

I'm not finding the valid reason here. As far as we've seen, humanity didn't look for the cylons in that time except for sending an ambassador to an isolated outpost once per year to see if the cylons showed up to maintain some sort of diplomatic relationship -- which they didn't until the surprise attack. They certainly maintained a large military, but it appears to have been defensively oriented. They don't appear to have been exploring much outside of the colonies. How were the colonies deserving of destruction?

mmu1 said:
I'm going to be really angry if the writers end up validating her insanity by making her the prophesied savior of mankind.
Ditto.
 

WizarDru said:
We, as omniscient viewers, know that. How does the president? How does Kara, for that matter? Has anyone proven he's not a cylon plant?

The first thing I'd do when I got Helo and Starbuck back to the Galactica is run a Cylon test on them and keep them confined until they pass. That'd only take, what, a week?

Even relatively unreligious characters like Apollo are clearly defensive when Boomer-C talks smack about it.

"We know more about your religion than you do."

That's rude. Then again, the Cylons have had years in which to pillag...I mean, do archaeological studies of Kobol, which could yield all sorts of things.

As an aside, Athena *committed suicide?* Man, that's freaky.

Brad
 

BelenUmeria said:
Then again, the Cylons may also have some sort of psionic powers. I am still disturbed by the episode where the Cylon "hacked" a closed network. Those computers were wired together. They were not set up on a wireless network. The Cylons should not have been able to hack into a network to which they do not belong. They somehow "beamed" into a closed network.

Or, the Cylons in the fleet could have put backdoors and high-end tech into the systems on Galactica, without anyone knowing. Given the relatively safe assumption that the Cylons are vastly superior to the Humans with regards to computers, it's entirely possible. Hell, Gaeta could be a Cylon, and that's how they tapped in... right now it's a mystery or a convenient plot device.

cignus_pfaccari said:
The first thing I'd do when I got Helo and Starbuck back to the Galactica is run a Cylon test on them and keep them confined until they pass. That'd only take, what, a week?

Baltar is not trusted... certainly not by Tigh (he says as much), and probably not by much of anyone else... his Cyclon detector, as far as anyone knows, did not work. Only we as viewers know it actually does.
 

WizarDru said:
Poor Kara...I think she honestly thought they were going to stage a rescue operation. Or maybe she just really, really hoped it was so. Wonder what, if anything, will happen with those quixotic folks. I'll kind of miss the Caprica interludes, now that they're over.

I don't think they are over.

The single BEST idea Ron Moore had for the series was keeping a number of different plotlines going on in places other than the Fleet.

If this show stays in the Fleet - it will die; if it becomes bump into alien species along the way (more than a few times) it will devolve into Trek - and die.

The link to the Colonies as a place where the story happens - as opposed to *happened* was a brilliant idea and I think Kara is going back - with or without Roslin and/or Adama's permission. The show needs sets outside of the studio; it needs a story outside of the Fleet.
 

LightPhoenix said:
Baltar is not trusted... certainly not by Tigh (he says as much), and probably not by much of anyone else... his Cyclon detector, as far as anyone knows, did not work. Only we as viewers know it actually does.

Use Boomer-C as a control group.

Honestly, they better get some details out of her. Else, I'd start vivisecting.

Brad
 


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