Beguilers & Rogues; who's the better skillmonger?

[Felon]

Looking over the beguiler class, I think someone could make a pretty solid arguement for the beguiler being better in skill-check situations than our prototypical skillmonger, the rogue (note that whether or not there's fundamentally something with that is another discussion).

The beguiler has almost all of the class skills as the rogue, basically trading off skills like Perform and Use Rope for skills relevant to an arcanist. The beguiler comes up a little shy in skill points--6 per level to the rogue's 8--but spells will rapidly close the gap. As Mike Mearls once pointed out in one of his design diaries for Iron Heroes, many if not most skills can be replaced with a low-level spell. As far as the roguish skillset goes, the beguiler just so happens to have those spells on its spell list. They're pretty much all there--charm person, comprehend languages, detect secret doors, detect thoughts, disguise self, glibness, invisibility (standard and greater), knock, silence, spider climb, plus many more. The only glaring omission I see is find traps.

The beguilder can even lend many of these benefits to the party's less skilled members with spells like invisibility sphere and zone of silence. Not too shabby.

True, the beguiler doesn't get sneak attack, but this isn't a thread about damage output. It's a thread about skillmongering, where I believe the smart money is on the beguiler.

 

[satori01]

Add in the fact that it is an INT based caster and a Beguiler will probably get more skill points than a Rogue.

I still put my money on the Rogue though over a Beguiler, as the true Man of Skill. Rogues are built generally for self sufficency.
Take a Rogue and lock him in a prison cell with an anti magic field, and the Rogue still has a good chance to get out with that concealed set of Thieves Tools he or she has, (dont ask where he hid the lockpick).

If a Beguiler is assumed to be using Knock for Open Lock, Spider Climb for Climb, and Invisibility for Hide, then I can not really say a Beguiler is more skillful.

Also I would say Bluff, Use Magic Device, and Concentration are must haves as a Beguiler. Add in Sense Motive, Search, and Disable Device as likely skills to take, and any other skills are going to be dependent on bonuses skill points.

 

[Felon]

Well, constructing a scenario with an anti-magic field cell to give the rogue an edge is pretty much stacking the deck (and note that the beguiler can also squirrel away a lockpick).

All other things being equal, it certainly seems to me that a beguiler will have more resources at his disposal for overcoming a challenge that would typically require skill to overcome.

 

[Jdvn1]

True, the beguiler doesn't get sneak attack, but this isn't a thread about damage output. It's a thread about skillmongering, where I believe the smart money is on the beguiler.

I think, at least, that it's close.

Spells aren't available in all situations (getting caught casting a Charm Person spell in place of trying to use Diplomacy isn't a good thing), and the Rogue does have stuff like Skill Mastery.

I'm really not sure that either side has a clear advantage, though the extra 2/level does help the Rogue's case. If the Beguiler has an overall advantage in the skills department, it's not a clear one. Pretty balanced, I'd say.

 

[satori01]

I was speaking for the feel of the class, of all of the classes a Rogue is less dependent upon magic then any other base class, (especially when you add in Epic skill use).

A Beguiler is always going to have a strong magic feel, because after all it is essentially a caster class. However, I do agree that overall a single Beguiler thru skills and magic can perform the specialized duties of a Sneak/Trapfinding Rogue and a Social Rogue.

Issue with a Begulier is what Skills do you chose to solely simulate with spells, which ones to you put limited ranks into and plan to augment with spells as needed, and which ones do you max out. A Beguiler's magic and skills can quickly become redundant.

 

[Graf]

This is a bit of a “meta” argument, but skillmongering in DnD is really just about finding traps.

We’ve sailed through a lot of games with high diplomacy requirements (balls at embassy’s etc) because the DM basically just ignores the fact that you’re a bunch of anti-heroes where the best charisma bonus is +1.

But traps? Uhuh..
The DM may give you a trap finding NPC, but it won’t get handwaved the way the “you manage to convince the baron to lend you the magic heirloom because the plot demands it” stuff will.

Having said that, if it mattered mechanically in a game, the Beguiler would be better in social situations than the Rogue (cause skills + magic is better than just skills and its all limited by level anyway).