Beguilers & Warmages can learn any spell
- Thread starter satori01
- Start date
Guys read the quote and the spell section for the Beguiler and the Warmage again. I believe that the intention behind the quote was to allow whatever Advanced Learning spell chosen appear on the spell list, and only that. Unfortunately the logic and the language of the quote are unmistakable, if Warmage or a Beguiler knows a spell it is on their spell list.
Again, do I think the designers intended this? No
Do, I think it is a good thing? No, not really
Do I think the language and logical implications of “Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells know list" is plainly written and intelligible? Yes.
Alas there is a reason why people take great care in crafting legal contracts, and generally do not put in descriptive text, as that often leads to unintentional consequences.
Logically again it follows that, assuming a strict interpretation of the rules:
A) You can use Extra Spell to learn a spell not on your class spell
List.
B) Under most circumstances knowing a spell, is not sufficient to
Cast it; the spell must also appear on your class spell list.
C) The Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer cast spells
Like a sorcerer, and know all of the spells on their class spell
list. The above 3 classes can also add new spells to their their
spells know and to their class spell list via the Advanced
Learning feature.
D) The Warmage and Beguiler both have a specific line that says
Essentially, their spells known and class spell list are
analagous.
Without going into syntaxatical discussion of the true meaning of what " Essentially" means in the quoted line, I think the logic is decent.
What it also shows to me, is this in not a question that can be solved by a strict inteperatation of the Rules As Written. The Rules as Written here blow.
The easiest solution is of course to rewrite the Extra spell feat, and not all the pre exsisting rules. The debate, in my opinion needs to be: would it be unbalancing to have Extra Spell add spells to a personalized class spell list, and would it be unbalancing for an Arcane caster to add Divine spells and vice versa?
Again, do I think the designers intended this? No
Do, I think it is a good thing? No, not really
Do I think the language and logical implications of “Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells know list" is plainly written and intelligible? Yes.
Alas there is a reason why people take great care in crafting legal contracts, and generally do not put in descriptive text, as that often leads to unintentional consequences.
Logically again it follows that, assuming a strict interpretation of the rules:
A) You can use Extra Spell to learn a spell not on your class spell
List.
B) Under most circumstances knowing a spell, is not sufficient to
Cast it; the spell must also appear on your class spell list.
C) The Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer cast spells
Like a sorcerer, and know all of the spells on their class spell
list. The above 3 classes can also add new spells to their their
spells know and to their class spell list via the Advanced
Learning feature.
D) The Warmage and Beguiler both have a specific line that says
Essentially, their spells known and class spell list are
analagous.
Without going into syntaxatical discussion of the true meaning of what " Essentially" means in the quoted line, I think the logic is decent.
What it also shows to me, is this in not a question that can be solved by a strict inteperatation of the Rules As Written. The Rules as Written here blow.
The easiest solution is of course to rewrite the Extra spell feat, and not all the pre exsisting rules. The debate, in my opinion needs to be: would it be unbalancing to have Extra Spell add spells to a personalized class spell list, and would it be unbalancing for an Arcane caster to add Divine spells and vice versa?
Last edited:
Nifft said:
I tend to agree with your sentiments, but the idea of a Wizard casting Raise Dead, or a Cleric tossing Fireballs generates alot of aversion, and calls of usurptation of a class' roll by many people.
Ultimately the question becomes are their spells so powerful that allowing someone to spend a feat on them can break the game?
Ok. So, here's a question. If a 9th level Beguiler takes Extra Spell and picks Blindness/Deafness, what level spell is it? It isn't on his class list... its a 2nd level Sorcerer/Wizard and Bard spell... but a 3rd level Cleric spell.
I think that's where the whole, "You can pick any spell on any spell list" thing really breaks down - even if you *could* add it to your spell list and spells known list, you can't determine what level spell it is with something like that. Will that come up with every spell? No; only a handful have varying levels, and, one would think, fewer still would actually be selected. But, when your rules interpretation opens up an unanswerable question (which it is, as far as I can see - you would have to house rule things one way or another), then your interpretation is flawed.
I think that's where the whole, "You can pick any spell on any spell list" thing really breaks down - even if you *could* add it to your spell list and spells known list, you can't determine what level spell it is with something like that. Will that come up with every spell? No; only a handful have varying levels, and, one would think, fewer still would actually be selected. But, when your rules interpretation opens up an unanswerable question (which it is, as far as I can see - you would have to house rule things one way or another), then your interpretation is flawed.
No, it becomes like a legal case where you see if there is pre exsitant
rulings that can be used as precedent. In this case we can use the Dread Necromancer as an example. The Advanced Learning Feature of the Dread Necromancer lets the character chose any Necromancy school spell from either the Cleric of Wizard spell list, and use the lowest level of the spell as the spell level.
Thus if you think Extra Spell is equal in power to Advanced Learning go with the lower spell level. If you think it is lessor in power go with the higher spell level. As a rule of thumb I would also say full casters should be assigned spell levels from full caster classes, and half casters from half caster spell list. One should actively discourage someone from using the feat to say learn Animal Growth as a 4th level Ranger spell, when it is a 5th level full caster spell. The problem you described in your post btw already applies to the Archivist class in Heroes of Horror, who as written could learn the 4th level Ranger version of Animal Growth.
An intresting aside, the Fiendish Sorcery ability of the Fiend -Blooded PrC in Hereos of Horror is an ability that at first glance appears to be similiar to the Advanced Learning ability of a Dread Necromancer. Howerer in the class description it only explicity mentions the spell being added to your spells known list.
So according to what Thanee and Hyp have been advocating, with this ability if you were to chose say Speak with Dead, and were a sorcerer before taking the class you could not actually cast the spell, which kinda defeats the purpose of the ability.
rulings that can be used as precedent. In this case we can use the Dread Necromancer as an example. The Advanced Learning Feature of the Dread Necromancer lets the character chose any Necromancy school spell from either the Cleric of Wizard spell list, and use the lowest level of the spell as the spell level.
Thus if you think Extra Spell is equal in power to Advanced Learning go with the lower spell level. If you think it is lessor in power go with the higher spell level. As a rule of thumb I would also say full casters should be assigned spell levels from full caster classes, and half casters from half caster spell list. One should actively discourage someone from using the feat to say learn Animal Growth as a 4th level Ranger spell, when it is a 5th level full caster spell. The problem you described in your post btw already applies to the Archivist class in Heroes of Horror, who as written could learn the 4th level Ranger version of Animal Growth.
An intresting aside, the Fiendish Sorcery ability of the Fiend -Blooded PrC in Hereos of Horror is an ability that at first glance appears to be similiar to the Advanced Learning ability of a Dread Necromancer. Howerer in the class description it only explicity mentions the spell being added to your spells known list.
So according to what Thanee and Hyp have been advocating, with this ability if you were to chose say Speak with Dead, and were a sorcerer before taking the class you could not actually cast the spell, which kinda defeats the purpose of the ability.
Last edited:
RigaMortus2
First Post
Mistwell said:
Personally I'd rather use up time/xp/money to research the spell since you always have an unlimited source of each. Need more, just go on an adventure. But a feat is limited. You only get so many. But most importantly, the DM has to also allow the feat as well, just has he has to allow the research attempt?
RigaMortus2
First Post
satori01 said:
But the feat doesn't say that. If you are just going to make up your own rules for the feat, why even post here and ask us our opinions?
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