Beguilers & Warmages can learn any spell

[Thanee]

Logically again it follows that, assuming a strict interpretation of the rules:

A) You can use Extra Spell to learn a spell not on your class spell
List.

You can learn an additional spell. Warmages cannot learn spells. Thus, no benefit for them.

B) Under most circumstances knowing a spell, is not sufficient to
Cast it; the spell must also appear on your class spell list.

Not most. All.

C) The Warmage, Beguiler, and Dread Necromancer cast spells
Like a sorcerer, and know all of the spells on their class spell
list. The above 3 classes can also add new spells to their their
spells know and to their class spell list via the Advanced
Learning feature.

Wrong! They add spells to their spell list. They don't have a seperate spells known list.

D) The Warmage and Beguiler both have a specific line that says
Essentially, their spells known and class spell list are
analagous.

Yeah, so?

Even if it was possible to add a spell to their spells known list and not also to their class spell list, then this rule would be broken, so it cannot happen, because then the two lists would not be the same.

Without changing the class spell list, this simply cannot work.

Without going into syntaxatical discussion of the true meaning of what " Essentially" means in the quoted line, I think the logic is decent.

Not anymore, once you look at the whole picture, though.

And that 'essentially' is quite important, much like the 'generally' in Extra Spell. You cannot just drop that, and only take the rest.

What it also shows to me, is this in not a question that can be solved by a strict inteperatation of the Rules As Written. The Rules as Written here blow.

Now that's right.

The easiest solution is of course to rewrite the Extra spell feat, and not all the pre exsisting rules.

And then what? Can wizards then simply learn cleric spells?

Why is it better to rewrite EVERY rule coming after the flawed rule, instead of only changing the flawed rule ONCE?

Bye
Thanee

 

[wayne62682]

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is in the first place. It adds versatility to the class! What if I have a Cleric of a fire god? Wouldn't it, you know, make SENSE for me to have Fireball? Or a Wizard who is part of a good-aligned order of mages that seek to help those in need (Exalted Wizard?). Being able to learn a Cure spell would be in character.

I think the Extra Spell feat should add one line and fix everything: With your DM's permission.... There, problem solved. The player wanting his exalted wizard to learn a healing spell could do so as it's in character. The munchkin who wants his cleric to learn Fireball to be more l33t is SOL.

 

[Nifft]

I tend to agree with your sentiments, but the idea of a Wizard casting Raise Dead, or a Cleric tossing Fireballs generates alot of aversion, and calls of usurptation of a class' roll by many people.

Ultimately the question becomes are their spells so powerful that allowing someone to spend a feat on them can break the game?

Wizards can already do this (by expending a limited resource, namely XP -- they cast limited wish or wish).

Clerics can already do this (by taking the Magic domain and buying a Wand of Fireball).


So yeah, I'm not seeing the big deal. Core rules already allows things that are very similar. A Cleric of a Fire deity who spends a feat learning fireball is less cheesy than ... well, than many things that could have been done with a Cleric.

And a Wizard who spends a feat to help his frikkin' party is a Wizard that I want to support in my game.


Cheers, -- N

 

[FalcWP]

No, it becomes like a legal case where you see if there is pre exsitant
rulings that can be used as precedent. In this case we can use the Dread Necromancer as an example. The Advanced Learning Feature of the Dread Necromancer lets the character chose any Necromancy school spell from either the Cleric of Wizard spell list, and use the lowest level of the spell as the spell level.

No, we can't. Why? Because Dread Necromancer is a class from Heroes of Horror. Heroes of Horror is not a core book. Complete Arcane says you need the three core books, and that it references the Epic Level Handbook and the Underdark supplement for the FRCS - the latter two "are not strictly necessary". Therefore, Hero's of Horror can *not* be used to adjudicate Complete Arcane. If someone only has Complete Arcane and the core rule books, then Extra Spell has to be usable, by them, as written. And, as written, it is impossible to judge what level a spell like Blindness/Deafness is for a Beguiler, because Beguilers do not have access to that spell normally. It logically follows, then, that Beguilers cannot pick Blindness/Deafness because it is not on their spell list. Extending the logic one step further, you could say that nobody may pick a spell that isn't on their spell list with Extra Spell.

 

[guardianfallenangel]

You can learn an additional spell. Warmages cannot learn spells. Thus, no benefit for them.

Wrong! They add spells to their spell list. They don't have a seperate spells known list.

Warmages do learn spells. They begin play after having learned all the spells on their list. It says in their description that they are taught the spells. They don't need a seperate spells known list. I don't see any problem using the feat to gain an extra spell. Honestly I don't see any game breaking aspect of it, and according to the rules it can be done. Just my two copper.

 

[Thanee]

It says in their description that they are taught the spells.

I'm talking about game mechanics, not flavor text.

Bye
Thanee

 

[satori01]

For the most part I agree with you Thanee, with a lot of caveats. Being able to "learn" spells is so poorly and contradictory defined as to be an almost meaningless term.

Looking at the Base Classes that "learn" spells as described under the class abillity section we have:
Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Archivist, Hexblade, Shugenja, Wu Jen, and Spellthief.

Presumbly the Favored Soul should be on that list, but under its spell description it makes no mention of learning spells beyond replacing old known spells with new spells every X level like a Sorcerer.

This is the issue I have in general with the feat and spell section, a lack of percision in the writting.

Learn can be used in a very technical percise sense, and it can be used as flavor text. Sorcerers like Wizards, "learn" their spells, despite the fact the flavor of the Sorcerer is anything but scholarly. Meanwhile back at the war college, where Warmages are described as "learning" their spells they are in fact just Knowing every spell on their spell list. The Advance Learning class feature is more apply described in game terms as Expanded Spell list.

To make matter worse, WOTC did a half measure when designing the Warmage. Realistically the entire concept of Spells Known, should be replaced with Only Knows and can Cast all spell on the class list. This is the wording for the Dread Necromancer. As we all know the Warmage and Beguiler have Spells known = Spell list clause.

Thus when Extra Spell talks about "learning" a spell we have to ask is this technical learning or descriptive learning?
Even if Extra Spell is technical learning we are still left with the problem of the Fiend Blood PrC and the Fiendish Learning ability, where it only adds to your Spells Known. "Essentially" Warmages and Beguilers still do have Spells Known, and thus would add any spell "learned" to their Spell List. Of course the poor little Sorcerer, could then "learn" say Speak with Dead, but never cast it.

We also do not know if "learning" a spell in context of the Extra Spell Feat means it is added to one's class spell list.
Indeed, beyond the line in Class Abillities about Bards and Sorcerers be able to "learn" spells, in the Magic section of the PHB it only refers to Bards and Sorcerers as adding to their Spells Known with level increases, never to "learning" new spells. This is a similiar mechanism that Warmages, Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers have, Warmages et all just add a lot more spells to their known spell list.

Suddenly through all of the morass of the rules, I wonder if you can even talk of "learning" spells as a technical term, especially as
the Favored Soul, being a divine sorcerer should then have the concept in its Spell section of Class Abilities, which it doesnt.

"learning" spells is similiar to the Right of Privacy in the American Legal system, more inference than spelled out.

 

[Thanee]

"Essentially" Warmages and Beguilers still do have Spells Known, and thus would add any spell "learned" to their Spell List.

That's the jump you make, which is not supported by any text in the rules, and which is where we are in disagreement, I guess.

We also do not know if "learning" a spell in context of the Extra Spell Feat means it is added to one's class spell list.

We actually know that one. It does not. If it did, it would say so.

Indeed, beyond the line in Class Abillities about Bards and Sorcerers be able to "learn" spells, in the Magic section of the PHB it only refers to Bards and Sorcerers as adding to their Spells Known with level increases, never to "learning" new spells. This is a similiar mechanism that Warmages, Dread Necromancers, and Beguilers have, Warmages et all just add a lot more spells to their known spell list.

Similar, yes. Equal, no.

Suddenly through all of the morass of the rules, I wonder if you can even talk of "learning" spells as a technical term, especially as
the Favored Soul, being a divine sorcerer should then have the concept in its Spell section of Class Abilities, which it doesnt.

"learning" spells is similiar to the Right of Privacy in the American Legal system, more inference than spelled out.

Yep. It's fairly obvious how it works, though.

Sorcerers (etc) learn spells when they level up and when they add the indicated amount to their spells known.

Wizards (etc) learn spells when they level up and whenever they write new spells into their spell books, or through research.

Clerics (etc) do not learn spells (other than with effects that add to their class spell list).

Warmages (etc) do not learn spells (other than with effects that add to their class spell list).

Bye
Thanee

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I tend to agree with your sentiments, but the idea of a Wizard casting Raise Dead, or a Cleric tossing Fireballs generates alot of aversion, and calls of usurptation of a class' roll by many people.

As opposed to clerics tossing flamestrikes, which are pretty much fireball columns...which nobody seems to have an aversion too.

DS

 

[Kafkonia]

Essentially, his {the Warmage and Beguiler} spell list is the same as his spells known list.

See, I read that the opposite from how you do, and I think the way it's intended to. "The Beguiler/Warmage knows every spell on his list," rather than "Every spell the Beguiler/Warmage knows is on his list."