D&D 5E Beholder hunting: nasty counter-tactics to Darkness?

I play suboptimal when it is appropriate for the creature. It isn't appropriate for beholders which in most editions of D&D are very calculating creatures.

I find tactical, optimized play interesting. It doesn't bore me as it seems to bore you. That's why I as a DM take playing the monsters in an optimal fashion intent on winning interesting. As a DM it is difficult to try to challenge five players with a vast array of abilities with a single monster. Being able to do that as a DM makes the game fun. If I had to run monsters in some random fashion that allowed the PCs to steamroll them would bore me.

What I find boring is uniform tactical brilliance. Having some monsters be good at tactics is good and interesting.

I find optimized play interesting for monsters for whom it makes sense. Liches, for example, would get played with my full tactical acumen. Beholder overseers and hive mothers, yes, absolutely. Certain vampires, yes. Veteran warlords, ancient dragons. For all of these, it makes perfect sense.

Not beholders though. They'll play very effectively due to their high int, but they also have emotional constraints (as witness the lore and their random eyestalk rules) and they are bughouse crazy. They'll play well within those limits, which is why I started this thread to brainstorm, but they're explicitly written in the MM as being non-optimal.

If there were a hive mother around or an overseer I would not only play the beholders in a coordinated fashion, I would also override the random eyestalk rule. In this case though she is dead.

P.S. "In real life creatures that act in a foolish, suboptimal fashion die." If this were true, no humans would have any credit card debt, and obese people wouldn't exist.
 
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What I find boring is uniform tactical brilliance. Having some monsters be good at tactics is good and interesting.

I find optimized play interesting for monsters for whom it makes sense. Liches, for example, would get played with my full tactical acumen. Beholder overseers and hive mothers, yes, absolutely. Certain vampires, yes. Veteran warlords, ancient dragons. For all of these, it makes perfect sense.

Not beholders though. They'll play very effectively due to their high int, but they also have emotional constraints (as witness the lore and their random eyestalk rules) and they are bughouse crazy. They'll play well within those limits, which is why I started this thread to brainstorm, but they're explicitly written in the MM as being non-optimal.

If there were a hive mother around or an overseer I would not only play the beholders in a coordinated fashion, I would also override the random eyestalk rule. In this case though she is dead.

P.S. "In real life creatures that act in a foolish, suboptimal fashion die." If this were true, no humans would have any credit card debt, and obese people wouldn't exist.

Societal change allows obese people to continue to live. They often live suboptimal, shorter lives with health problems that are costly. They would be quite dead in a D&D type world absent say learning magic to compensate for their poor life choices.

Credit card debt is the same. Those with too much live suboptimal lives. They and their children generally end up with lesser lives and they fall lower on the totem pole of survival. If you go back to the old world, those with too much debt often ended up enslaved. Fortunately, the modern world isn't quite so cruel, though such fools do end up leading lesser lives.

We're talking about D&D worlds, which are very violent with lots competing creatures. Death is generally the cost of failing to live in an optimal fashion. As it was for humans for many, many years. Well, death or enslavement.
 
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We're talking about D&D worlds, which are very violent with lots competing creatures. Death is generally the cost of failing to live in an optimal fashion. As it was for humans for many, many years. Well, death or enslavement.

I guess that's another playstyle difference between us. My universe is cosmopolitan but it has a fair amount of violence in it--but usually not the violence of someone picking a fair fight, more likely someone picking on a weaker party. As such, powerful creatures can get away with not being tactical battlecomputers because, for example, nobody wants to pick a fight with the mind flayer cities on Falx even if they are spending all their time hedonistically munching on brains instead of preparing for war. They'd rather go blackmail human peasants/merchants into paying them for "protection." The chances of someone randomly picking a fight with a beholder tyrant ship without being paid to do so by another tyrant ship are quite low, so there is no Darwinian imperative that says "all the stupid beholders are dead." On the contrary, all the stupid beholders are still around, bifurcating their colonies and then going to war with each other, in addition to picking on human merchants for cash to fund their wars.

It sounds like your game is a lot more intrinsically, theatrically violent.
 

there is no Darwinian imperative that says "all the stupid beholders are dead."
...all the stupid beholders are... ...going to war with each other...

That's precisely the darwinian imperative that says all the stupid beholders are dead. Beholders that can choose eye rays and pick, say, death, disintegrate and petrify against their opponents will slaughter ones that have a high chance to attack mental stats that beholders are strong in, or merely slow or restrain their foe.

And that's ignoring the whole "most of my potential slaves end up dead" and "I tunnel through stone at 1/10th the speed of a smart beholder" issues.
 

That's precisely the darwinian imperative that says all the stupid beholders are dead. Beholders that can choose eye rays and pick, say, death, disintegrate and petrify against their opponents will slaughter ones that have a high chance to attack mental stats that beholders are strong in, or merely slow or restrain their foe.

And that's ignoring the whole "most of my potential slaves end up dead" and "I tunnel through stone at 1/10th the speed of a smart beholder" issues.

Haha. Exactly.
 

I guess that's another playstyle difference between us. My universe is cosmopolitan but it has a fair amount of violence in it--but usually not the violence of someone picking a fair fight, more likely someone picking on a weaker party. As such, powerful creatures can get away with not being tactical battlecomputers because, for example, nobody wants to pick a fight with the mind flayer cities on Falx even if they are spending all their time hedonistically munching on brains instead of preparing for war. They'd rather go blackmail human peasants/merchants into paying them for "protection." The chances of someone randomly picking a fight with a beholder tyrant ship without being paid to do so by another tyrant ship are quite low, so there is no Darwinian imperative that says "all the stupid beholders are dead." On the contrary, all the stupid beholders are still around, bifurcating their colonies and then going to war with each other, in addition to picking on human merchants for cash to fund their wars.

It sounds like your game is a lot more intrinsically, theatrically violent.

We know our play-styles are very different.

The most recent work I did with a beholder was a Death Tyrant leading an army of zombies and undead. They would pull him around on well-protected cart. He would send his army into villages to kill everyone and use his eye while people were dying to add to his army. I prefer beholders as solo creatures leading plots of their own rather than a creature group on space ships. Then again I've never been into Spelljammer of Scifi games. Not my cup of tea.

I prefer to think of beholders as being the highly intelligent antagonist leader of evil than a minion on a ship.

As I told you, I tell stories in these games. I have zero interest in the idea of wandering folk doing stuff solely for pay. Enemies are given motivations, personalities, and a desire to live the equal of the PCs, so they can challenge the PCs. The PCs get caught up in adventures that put them into opposition with an antagonist. Combats are usually part of defeating their plans unless it is some random event I throw in to maintain verisimilitude.

What does that even mean in terms of D&D? Intrinsically, theatrically violent? This game is all theater. Because some people try to call it something else does not change that it is all theater. Artificially created events generated by the mind of a human intended to entertain and a great deal of it involves violence.

The difference between our play-styles seems to involve how we frame the world. You seem to feel you frame the world as a series of disconnected events or places with creatures that the players may or may not engage. You seem to not mind creating that type of material continuously to create the illusion of a sandbox world where the PCs have more control over the direction of their imaginary lives.

I like to have a narrative the PCs follow where they participate in some grand story where there is a key antagonist they must defeat to save the world, kingdom, town, or whatever thing they are trying to save. I create scenes that are part of this narrative involving a variety of situations that lead to the defeat of this antagonist. The PCs world is generally limited to the scenes in the narrative rather than having the ability to move in a random direction of their choosing.

It is in essence the sandbox versus the railroad. I prefer the railroad and you prefer the sandbox. I feel a well-designed railroad can make for an interesting, exciting, and fun trip with a very satisfying and powerful ending that makes the PCs feel as though they accomplished something extraordinary in their lives ending as heroes of the land. All this talk of, "If I wanted a story, I would read a book or watch a movie" means nothing to me. My inspiration for playing this game is and has always been a desire to be a participant in the amazing stories I've read and seen, not wander around as some random person in a fantasy world. I wanted to be part of The Fellowship of the Ring. I wanted to go with Conan on his adventures. I wanted to be a knight in the Arthurian Tales serving Arthur and going on quests. My friends are similar to myself. I try to make them a part of extraordinary fantasy stories as protagonists that end up as the great heroes of their story. That's my preferred play-style.
 

That's precisely the darwinian imperative that says all the stupid beholders are dead. Beholders that can choose eye rays and pick, say, death, disintegrate and petrify against their opponents will slaughter ones that have a high chance to attack mental stats that beholders are strong in, or merely slow or restrain their foe.

Not so much. Even a stupid beholder can turn on an anti-magic ray, so optimized eye rays are a non-factor in a beholder civil war.

Why would potential slaves wind up dead? That doesn't follow.

You tunnel at 60% speed, not 10%. 60% of eye rays get used each round.
 

You tunnel at 60% speed, not 10%. 60% of eye rays get used each round.
Actually it's in between. Three rays fire during the action giving a 30% chance. Then there are 3 independent legendary actions each with a 10% chance, but they are not additive with the 30%. You have to use combinatorics. The answer is going to be slightly above 30%, not 60%
 


I just realised that Hemlock might be going by an alternative interpretation that mitigates the random eye rule slightly.

I'm interpreting the rule to mean "the beholder picks (up to) 3 targets to blast, then rolls which eye rays blast them", which leads to a 40% chance that you kill your slave compared with a 10% chance you actually enslave him. And since you have to re-do it every hour, you basically can't use slaves. It also means that you've an even chance to disintegrate a lever that you wished to pull with telekinesis.

Hemlock seems to be using "the beholder rolls 3 eye rays, then chooses what/when/where to blast with them". Much better for utility concerns and combat, but still way below being able to choose the eyes to fire.
 

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