D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[James Gasik]

I'm kinda hoping D&D gets big in Japan, because it means more demand for anime-esque/wuxia style action.

Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

 

[Haplo781]

It feels like it comes down to what fiction folks.have in their head and everyone agreeing.

Having Conan advance from young thief to pirate/warrior king feels like a.different fiction than having him advance from young thief to MCU Thor.

I wonder if the difficulty is how magic is portrayed in the differing motivational fiction.

In most of Glen Cook's the Black Company series, the company's wizards Goblin and One-Eye are good, but the actual experienced martials are important too and they complement each other. In his Dread Empire, the experienced martials and Gish seem vaguely balanced, but the strong wizards that fight along side the warriors are off the chart. In neither of them would an off the chart martial feel right. (The BBG in each are a super powered NPC wizardy types).

In any case, in D&D it feels like there are two different games fighting each other - one with the "classical martials" where the wizards might need to be limited if things are to be kept on an even keel, and one with "super casters" where the martials might need to be opened up more to balance it.

I wonder if the best (not going to happen) solution for hitting the biggest chunk of motivating fictions is to have two sets of core books. One presenting things capping out at around level 8 or 10 or whatnot, and describing a world like that, and another presenting things capping out around 20 and presenting a world that fits that.

Just bring back the Basic/Advanced lines

 

[James Gasik]

Exactly.

Batman and Green Arrow get computer brains and super reflexes when they go to Justice League. Because they have to doge where Superman and Wonder Woman can eat lasers to the chest.

A high level martial really should have multiple reactions per turn.

Check out Adventures in Rokugan, they noticed the same thing, and fixed it.

 

[James Gasik]

Just bring back the Basic/Advanced lines

Ultimately though, that led to TSR competing with itself, which didn't turn out very well at the time.

 

[Haplo781]

Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

Old-school D&D is. They're not much into WotC D&D.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Huh? It's been big, so much so they created their own versions of it. Ever hear of The Record of Lodoss War?

I literally saw that one night on cable and didn't know what it was called and went to my Vampire group and asked if any of them (big group knew more anime) knew what Anime it was cause it was D&D... that was all that was needed to be told Record of the Lodoss war and be given the VHSs to watch.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Check out Adventures in Rokugan, they noticed the same thing, and fixed it.

I really have to check that out

 

[Cadence]

Exactly.

Batman and Green Arrow get computer brains and super reflexes when they go to Justice League. Because they have to doge where Superman and Wonder Woman can eat lasers to the chest.

A high level martial really should have multiple reactions per turn.

Something does certainly change in the JLA or Avengers books when the varying power levels are together. But it feels to me like it's more like the top end is nerfed that the bottom end brought up.

Superman and Wonder Woman and Thor and Captain Marvel have a lot of stories in their own books where thank goodness Batman and Songbird and Hawkeye and Hawkeye aren't along, because they would just die without a naughty word ton of plot armor. The Thor who takes on a celestial in his own book doesn't feel anything like the Thor who struggles against Orca.

Is the only reason JLA or Avengers comics work because the Superman or Monica Rambeau powered hero or villain doesn't do what a lot of D&D players would do and use their powers to their fullest and just kill all the none top tier powered folks on the other side with one action in a single round? (See also the differing fates of Thor.and Cap when they fight the Presence in Kang Dynasty, or how Kingdom Come goes for most of the folks).

Batman puts up a fight against Supes in Dark Knight Returns because he's prepared for it forever, Superman has a convenient Achilles heal that Thor doesn't, Superman is weakened, and Superman doesn't want to kill him. Make it spontaneous, and Superman flies through Bats at near the speed of light before Bats even recognizes the pinging of any alarms. (See many scenes out of the Authority or Bendis having Sentry take out Ares).

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I object to the idea that a single Fighter, (applying 5e terms) would be able to defeat what is a party (if not larger) level threat, solo, and yes to narrate it in such a way as was presented in the video.

I do not believe a group of Fighters, should be able to defeat such a Monster, and that it should take a 'balanced' party with buffs, debuffs, healing, magic, and yes Magic Items, for a Fighter to be the essential spear point.

Without knowing the game, I would look at that and think that that machine is pretty similar to a dragon. Maybe Huge or Gargantuan I'm not sure, but without some of the special abilities/spells etc of an actual dragon. I think that the average dragon could probably tear it up, so why not a group of level 20 characters willing to burn their daily resources?

It is impossible to know its actual hit points, so I'm guessing the issue is the looks of the fight rather than the "fighters can't do enough damage" technical aspect that snaps your suspension of disbelief?
I'm guessing it wouldn't look weird to you if it was a volley of missiles blowing it up, or a laser vaporising its midsection, but one guy with a sword is a step too far?

I dont hate Fighters/Martials, love them. I just absolutely believe that the game is better, when you have a diverse party with diverse roles, with strengths AND WEAKNESSES that the various party members must cover each other for. Nobody should 'swing a sword' better than a Fighter, it shouldnt be close. So take that Fighter's strength, add in the Clerics strengths, the Wizards, the Bards, and suddenly that Fighter, is greater than than he could ever be.

Its like Raid Buffs in MMO's. I love those, because your Character will never be as powerful alone, as it is when you are playing with your friends.

The idea of running a party of 4 Martial classes with no Magic and no Healing, is nonsensical to me.

Why is that nonsensical? I see all-caster parties be highly successful extremely often.

 

[Haplo781]

Ultimately though, that led to TSR competing with itself, which didn't turn out very well at the time.

Is joke. Hence emoji.

Seriously though what I would like is for WotC to just open up the 5e OGL to every past edition of D&D (particularly 4e, which has a horribly restrictive license and is incredibly difficult to clone) and allow 3pp books for them via DM's Guild.

I'm a lot less sanguine about the prospect of that happening now with this "One D&D" business, but maybe a couple years after launch, when they've got everyone to make the jump from 5e...

 

[DND_Reborn]

Love me my Lodoss War. I just watched Chronicle of a Heroic Knight last Saturday for about the tenth time (DVD version).

That is a D&D I can support.

 

[Haplo781]

Without knowing the game, I would look at that and think that that machine is pretty similar to a dragon. Maybe Huge or Gargantuan I'm not sure, but without some of the special abilities/spells etc of an actual dragon. I think that the average dragon could probably tear it up, so why not a group of level 20 characters willing to burn their daily resources?

It is impossible to know its actual hit points, so I'm guessing the issue is the looks of the fight rather than the "fighters can't do enough damage" technical aspect that snaps your suspension of disbelief?
I'm guessing it wouldn't look weird to you if it was a volley of missiles blowing it up, or a laser vaporising its midsection, but one guy with a sword is a step too far?


Why is that nonsensical? I see all-caster parties be highly successful extremely often.

It's the old chestnut. Say "martials should be weak" without saying "martials should be weak."

 

[Medic]

I object to the idea that a single Fighter, (applying 5e terms) would be able to defeat what is a party (if not larger) level threat, solo, and yes to narrate it in such a way as was presented in the video.

I do not believe a group of Fighters, should be able to defeat such a Monster, and that it should take a 'balanced' party with buffs, debuffs, healing, magic, and yes Magic Items, for a Fighter to be the essential spear point.

I dont hate Fighters/Martials, love them. I just absolutely believe that the game is better, when you have a diverse party with diverse roles, with strengths AND WEAKNESSES that the various party members must cover each other for. Nobody should 'swing a sword' better than a Fighter, it shouldnt be close. So take that Fighter's strength, add in the Clerics strengths, the Wizards, the Bards, and suddenly that Fighter, is greater than than he could ever be.

Its like Raid Buffs in MMO's. I love those, because your Character will never be as powerful alone, as it is when you are playing with your friends.

The idea of running a party of 4 Martial classes with no Magic and no Healing, is nonsensical to me.

Orcus has been the main villain of this thread, so let's dissect this demon prince (in 5th Edition, since this is a 5e thread).

The Lord of the Undead has a +10 to Dexterity saves, a +15 to Constitution saves, and a +13 to Wisdom saves. Already he's shrugging off most of the spells that a level 20 Wizard can throw his way, who "only" has a spell save DC of 18, meaning that Orcus will succeed against more than half of the wizard's spells (unless you're using one of a select few that target a less common save). But wait, there's more! Like any greater demon, he has innate Magic Resistance (Advantage on saves against spells and magical effects) to bolster his defenses even further, making it incredibly unlikely that he'll fail during a fight even if he rolls poorly. And in the unlikely event that he somehow does fail a save against Disintegrate or Polymorph, he has Legendary Resistance to fall back on and can simply choose to succeed a saving throw instead of failing three times a day. The "good stuff" that casters used to have (No-Save Spells, a veritable truckload of powerful summons) are also notably absent in 5th Edition. Taken altogether, a high-level Wizard is largely impotent in a one-on-one against the demon prince.

He's also resistant to Cold, Fire and Lightning, and immune to Necrotic, four of the most common magical damage types, and totally immune to the Charmed and Frightened conditions. Great. With his wand (which he should obviously have), he can also cast Blight at-will, cast Finger of Death 7 times, and whip up 500 hit points' worth of undead (that's two adult blue dracoliches, who also have legendary resistance, legendary actions, flying speed, high attack bonuses, high saves...) as an action once per day. Last but certainly not least are his Legendary Actions and Lair actions, which can be "annoying," to say the least.

Here's how this fight would actually play out: the Wizard and Cleric can't actually kill or disable Orcus or his dracoliches with their magic, so they have to focus on mitigating the damage and keeping the rest of the party buffed up and alive while the Paladin and Rogue are saddled with the unpleasant task of chewing through a meat wall of nearly 900 combined hit points with their weapons. I'm not really a fan of this design, but it's not like the casters would flex their magic muscles through the fight while martials would have to twiddle their thumbs and look on jealously in such a scenario. Both have their roles that need to be fulfilled.

 

[Cadence]

that is the thing... can you imagine telling someone that not only can they not play gilgamesh or Beowulf or link* because someone else doesn't want conan to advance to thor...

*link may be a bad example, I always think especially with magic instruments he is more a bard but I have had people say he is a warrior... I don't know

Gilgamesh and Beowulf feel more than a little different to me than MCU Thor or Captain Marvel

But anyway, the question feels like it's a bit about genre. If player A wants Ocean's 11 and the other wants Batman it feels like something has to give. If player A wants historical WWII and player B wants MCU WWII something has to give.

Is it that D&D just hasn't decided what the top level of power is?

I guess I'm curious about the actual play experience of folks who run things past level 12 and how the current fighter players are experiencing things compared to the current Wizard players. And if the current high level Wizard players actually feel like they're Dr. Strange to the Captain America fighter... or if they feel more constrained.

Just bring back the Basic/Advanced lines

I'm picturing all the threads that would make!

 

[James Gasik]

Orcus has been the main villain of this thread, so let's dissect this demon prince (in 5th Edition, since this is a 5e thread).

The Lord of the Undead has a +10 to Dexterity saves, a +15 to Constitution saves, and a +13 to Wisdom saves. Already he's shrugging off most of the spells that a level 20 Wizard can throw his way, who "only" has a spell save DC of 18, meaning that Orcus will succeed against more than half of the wizard's spells (unless you're using one of a select few that target a less common save). But wait, there's more! Like any greater demon, he has innate Magic Resistance (Advantage on saves against spells and magical effects) to bolster his defenses even further, making it incredibly unlikely that he'll fail during a fight even if he rolls poorly. And in the unlikely event that he somehow does fail a save against Disintegrate or Polymorph, he has Legendary Resistance to fall back on and can simply choose to succeed a saving throw instead of failing three times a day. The "good stuff" that casters used to have (No-Save Spells, a veritable truckload of powerful summons) are also notably absent in 5th Edition. Taken altogether, a high-level Wizard is largely impotent in a one-on-one against the demon prince.

He's also resistant to Cold, Fire and Lightning, and immune to Necrotic, four of the most common magical damage types, and totally immune to the Charmed and Frightened conditions. Great. With his wand (which he should obviously have), he can also cast Blight at-will, cast Finger of Death 7 times, and whip up 500 hit points' worth of undead (that's two adult blue dracoliches, who also have legendary resistance, legendary actions, flying speed, high attack bonuses, high saves...) as an action once per day. Last but certainly not least are his Legendary Actions and Lair actions, which can be "annoying," to say the least.

Here's how this fight would actually play out: the Wizard and Cleric can't actually kill or disable Orcus or his dracoliches with their magic, so they have to focus on mitigating the damage and keeping the rest of the party buffed up and alive while the Paladin and Rogue are saddled with the unpleasant task of chewing through a meat wall of nearly 900 combined hit points with their weapons. I'm not really a fan of this design, but it's not like the casters would flex their magic muscles through the fight while martials would have to twiddle their thumbs and look on jealously in such a scenario. Both have their roles that need to be fulfilled.

Wouldn't the save DC be 19 (or higher, if you have one of those DC boosting items from Tasha's)?

 

[Zubatcarteira]

8 + 6 proficiency + 5 Intelligence = 19, at least.

Even so, he'll probably save most of the time, but even that isn't necessarily a problem for a Wizard with Simulacrum, True Polymorph, Forcecage and all that. Orcus doesn't have a teleport in his statblock from what I can tell, so he'd have to rely on a summon to get him out of a Forcecage, definitely an issue if he's caught unaware.

 

[Minigiant]

Something does certainly change in the JLA or Avengers books when the varying power levels are together. But it feels to me like it's more like the top end is nerfed that the bottom end brought up.

Superman and Wonder Woman and Thor and Captain Marvel have a lot of stories in their own books where thank goodness Batman and Songbird and Hawkeye and Hawkeye aren't along, because they would just die without a naughty word ton of plot armor. The Thor who takes on a celestial in his own book doesn't feel anything like the Thor who struggles against Orca.

Is the only reason JLA or Avengers comics work because the Superman or Monica Rambeau powered hero or villain doesn't do what a lot of D&D players would do and use their powers to their fullest and just kill all the none top tier powered folks on the other side with one action in a single round? (See also the differing fates of Thor.and Cap when they fight the Presence in Kang Dynasty, or how Kingdom Come goes for most of the folks).

Batman puts up a fight against Supes in Dark Knight Returns because he's prepared for it forever, Superman has a convenient Achilles heal that Thor doesn't, Superman is weakened, and Superman doesn't want to kill him. Make it spontaneous, and Superman flies through Bats at near the speed of light before Bats even recognizes the pinging of any alarms. (See many scenes out of the Authority or Bendis having Sentry take out Ares).

Well people have been arguing to nerf casters so that we wouldn't need to boost fighters so much. But the steps down have been baby steps we'd be looking at 9e before we get down there.

 

[Haplo781]

Is it that D&D just hasn't decided what the top level of power is?

It has. "Literal god" for wizards, "upjumped peasant" for fighters.

 

[Haplo781]

Orcus has been the main villain of this thread, so let's dissect this demon prince (in 5th Edition, since this is a 5e thread).

The Lord of the Undead has a +10 to Dexterity saves, a +15 to Constitution saves, and a +13 to Wisdom saves. Already he's shrugging off most of the spells that a level 20 Wizard can throw his way, who "only" has a spell save DC of 18, meaning that Orcus will succeed against more than half of the wizard's spells (unless you're using one of a select few that target a less common save). But wait, there's more! Like any greater demon, he has innate Magic Resistance (Advantage on saves against spells and magical effects) to bolster his defenses even further, making it incredibly unlikely that he'll fail during a fight even if he rolls poorly. And in the unlikely event that he somehow does fail a save against Disintegrate or Polymorph, he has Legendary Resistance to fall back on and can simply choose to succeed a saving throw instead of failing three times a day. The "good stuff" that casters used to have (No-Save Spells, a veritable truckload of powerful summons) are also notably absent in 5th Edition. Taken altogether, a high-level Wizard is largely impotent in a one-on-one against the demon prince.

He's also resistant to Cold, Fire and Lightning, and immune to Necrotic, four of the most common magical damage types, and totally immune to the Charmed and Frightened conditions. Great. With his wand (which he should obviously have), he can also cast Blight at-will, cast Finger of Death 7 times, and whip up 500 hit points' worth of undead (that's two adult blue dracoliches, who also have legendary resistance, legendary actions, flying speed, high attack bonuses, high saves...) as an action once per day. Last but certainly not least are his Legendary Actions and Lair actions, which can be "annoying," to say the least.

Here's how this fight would actually play out: the Wizard and Cleric can't actually kill or disable Orcus or his dracoliches with their magic, so they have to focus on mitigating the damage and keeping the rest of the party buffed up and alive while the Paladin and Rogue are saddled with the unpleasant task of chewing through a meat wall of nearly 900 combined hit points with their weapons. I'm not really a fan of this design, but it's not like the casters would flex their magic muscles through the fight while martials would have to twiddle their thumbs and look on jealously in such a scenario. Both have their roles that need to be fulfilled.

Garbage monster design is another major issue with 5e that deserves its own thread.

 

[Cadence]

It has. "Literal god" for wizards, "upjumped peasant" for fighters.

I confess to not having played any high level wizards, but I have a hard time seeing how the high level 5e Wizard does quite as much as Dr. Strange does (although I'm having a hard time parsing out what the items do vs. what he does) and certainly not what Wanda does.

And sure, Conan was just a poor villager from the sticks and Steve Rogers was a scrawny kid from the Bronx, but that seems like underselling them a bit?