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D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

Red Castle

Adventurer
It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition rules were not to my taste, for these reasons, and so I avoid that edition.” It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition was unsuccessful for these reasons.”

It’s the attitude that people are gleeful that 4e failed, and that some are trying to argue that no one should play this edition.

It’s the blog post that came out right as 4e was initially released, entitled, “Fourth Edition is out, and it’s awful.”

It’s the video I watched recently, where the person says, “I’ve never played 4e, because I’ve heard horrible things about it.”

It’s Bardic Broadcasts (the “Heroquest is great”guy), when discussing the artwork in various editions, skips 4e, saying, “4the edition is non-canonical, and shall not be discussed here!” Ha! Ha! Ha! He’s so edgy!

It’s the poster on another ttrpg forum, displaying pictures of himself dousing his 4e books in lighter fluid and setting them on fire, once 5e was published (or when it was announced, maybe). I was so astonished that the only thing I could think to say was, “Jack Chick approves.”

There is a visceral hatred of Fourth Edition that I have not observed with other editions.

Which would be fine, except, as I mentioned, it sometimes bleeds over into trying to steer people away from it, without regard to whether someone might like 4e’s style of play.

People have mentioned the disrupts* when 2e and 3e were published, but I view the situation as similar to the division between “Basic” and “Advanced” D&D. The attitude of superiority that was seemingly held by those who played the latter. “Oh, you still play that kid’s game?” It isn’t seen very much these days, except it is sometimes brought up for humor.

Moldvay/Mentzer D&D has, in the past few years, finally been recognized for the great games that they are.

I expect the same will happen for 4e in the future.

*edit: “disrupts”? I have no idea what I was originally typing, here, so I will leave it
Yeah, I know, that’s also what bothers me. Like I said, it’s okay to voice his disagreement, but there is a respectful way to do it… and sadly, not everybody care.

What is weird to me is that, when I was young in the 80s-90s, you could not say in school that you play DnD or love the Turtles or Star Wars at the risk of being bullied by other kids that did not share your hobby… now it feels like it is socially acceptable to talk about those hobbies, nobody cares, some are even curious or think it’s nice to see someone talk with passion about it… Now the bullying come from the inside… talking about 4e reminds me a lot about talking about the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy… there will always be someone that will feel the need to come out and say how much he thinks it sucks and he hate it, etc… « 4e didn’t exist! » « The sequel trilogy is not canon! »… why not just let the others enjoy the things they like?
 

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Yeah, I know, that’s also what bothers me. Like I said, it’s okay to voice his disagreement, but there is a respectful way to do it… and sadly, not everybody care.

What is weird to me is that, when I was young in the 80s-90s, you could not say in school that you play DnD or love the Turtles or Star Wars at the risk of being bullied by other kids that did not share your hobby… now it feels like it is socially acceptable to talk about those hobbies, nobody cares, some are even curious or think it’s nice to see someone talk with passion about it… Now the bullying come from the inside… talking about 4e reminds me a lot about talking about the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy… there will always be someone that will feel the need to come out and say how much he thinks it sucks and he hate it, etc… « 4e didn’t exist! » « The sequel trilogy is not canon! »… why not just let the others enjoy the things they like?
To be fair, I don’t consider any movie after Star Wars (a.k.a. “Episode IV: A New Hope”) as canon.

Darth Vader is NOT Luke’s father.

folds arms and scowls
 

In my opinion whatever people think of 4E isn't interesting. Feel free to hate it or love it as much as you like. My chief concern is how 4E is always used as an argument in certain discussions as a reason for why we cannot use method X or Y to solve a particular problem, because X or Y is vaguely similar to something in 4E and since 4E is bad (apparently) doing X or Y is also bad.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Yeah, I know, that’s also what bothers me. Like I said, it’s okay to voice his disagreement, but there is a respectful way to do it… and sadly, not everybody care.

What is weird to me is that, when I was young in the 80s-90s, you could not say in school that you play DnD or love the Turtles or Star Wars at the risk of being bullied by other kids that did not share your hobby… now it feels like it is socially acceptable to talk about those hobbies, nobody cares, some are even curious or think it’s nice to see someone talk with passion about it… Now the bullying come from the inside… talking about 4e reminds me a lot about talking about the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy… there will always be someone that will feel the need to come out and say how much he thinks it sucks and he hate it, etc… « 4e didn’t exist! » « The sequel trilogy is not canon! »… why not just let the others enjoy the things they like?
People are welcome to like what they like or hate what they hate, as we are often reminded, but the need for some people to be habitually toxic about it all is where the line is repeatedly crossed for me. I have some people on ignore precisely because they can't seem to distinguish between being respectfully critical about something they dislike and being toxic about their likes and dislikes to others.
 


pemerton

Legend
In my opinion whatever people think of 4E isn't interesting. Feel free to hate it or love it as much as you like. My chief concern is how 4E is always used as an argument in certain discussions as a reason for why we cannot use method X or Y to solve a particular problem, because X or Y is vaguely similar to something in 4E and since 4E is bad (apparently) doing X or Y is also bad.
People are welcome to like what they like or hate what they hate, as we are often reminded, but the need for some people to be habitually toxic about it all is where the line is repeatedly crossed for me. I have some people on ignore precisely because they can't seem to distinguish between being respectfully critical about something they dislike and being toxic about their likes and dislikes to others.
Related to this: what I called upthread the mistaking of first person for third person.

That is, someone doesn't like 4e but states "4e produces nonsensical fiction" as if that is entailed by "I don't like it".

Also I'm sick of "bending the fiction to fit the rules", which only makes sense as a criticism if one thinks that the rules of other versions of D&D never constrain the fiction. I mean, hit points? Turn-by-turn resolution? I can't say I killed the Orc unless (i) my to hit roll succeeds and (ii) my damage roll depletes its hp.

It's of the essence of a RPG that the rules constrain the fiction. That's their point: otherwise why have them?
 

Red Castle

Adventurer
People are welcome to like what they like or hate what they hate, as we are often reminded, but the need for some people to be habitually toxic about it all is where the line is repeatedly crossed for me. I have some people on ignore precisely because they can't seem to distinguish between being respectfully critical about something they dislike and being toxic about their likes and dislikes to others.
Sadly, in these days and age, for some, it is too much to ask…
 


tomBitonti

Adventurer
It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition rules were not to my taste, for these reasons, and so I avoid that edition.” It’s not that people are saying, “4th edition was unsuccessful for these reasons.”

It’s the attitude that people are gleeful that 4e failed, and that some are trying to argue that no one should play this edition.

It’s the blog post that came out right as 4e was initially released, entitled, “Fourth Edition is out, and it’s awful.”

It’s the video I watched recently, where the person says, “I’ve never played 4e, because I’ve heard horrible things about it.”

It’s Bardic Broadcasts (the “Heroquest is great”guy), when discussing the artwork in various editions, skips 4e, saying, “4the edition is non-canonical, and shall not be discussed here!” Ha! Ha! Ha! He’s so edgy!

It’s the poster on another ttrpg forum, displaying pictures of himself dousing his 4e books in lighter fluid and setting them on fire, once 5e was published (or when it was announced, maybe). I was so astonished that the only thing I could think to say was, “Jack Chick approves.”

There is a visceral hatred of Fourth Edition that I have not observed with other editions.

Which would be fine, except, as I mentioned, it sometimes bleeds over into trying to steer people away from it, without regard to whether someone might like 4e’s style of play.

People have mentioned the disrupts* when 2e and 3e were published, but I view the situation as similar to the division between “Basic” and “Advanced” D&D. The attitude of superiority that was seemingly held by those who played the latter. “Oh, you still play that kid’s game?” It isn’t seen very much these days, except it is sometimes brought up for humor.

Moldvay/Mentzer D&D has, in the past few years, finally been recognized for the great games that they are.

I expect the same will happen for 4e in the future.

*edit: “disrupts”? I have no idea what I was originally typing, here, so I will leave it
I think that is due to the terrible presentation, together with certain business decisions, together with the failure to deliver the digital platform. (We haven’t even mentioned the incomplete tools disc and the nightmare that was Gleemax.) All of that didn’t just turn people away — it riled them up.
TomB
 

I think that is due to the terrible presentation, together with certain business decisions, together with the failure to deliver the digital platform. (We haven’t even mentioned the incomplete tools disc and the nightmare that was Gleemax.) All of that didn’t just turn people away — it riled them up.
TomB
People are still riled.
The rile has not abated.
Such riling has never been known, in any kingdom.
It was, “The Rilinging”.
 

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