D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[Mannahnin]

This issue came up in 4e, and a question was asked about it of the designers. The answer that came back was (paraphrased), "Do what the rules say, and come up with an explanation for it". That's the difference to me. 4e's official stance was that the rules are more important.

Not just more important. Fiction didn’t matter.

I don't see that at all. I agree with Pemerton that the books and rules explicitly are trying to give us a good game experience in simulating fantasy fiction, but they're still representing fiction. They lean more Gamist than Simulationist compared to AD&D or 3E, and clearly they were further down that axis than a lot of gamers preferred. But this is more a change of degree rather than kind, IMO. Short Rests are still Rests. Objects are immune to Poison, Necrotic, and Psychic damage. Anything that targets the Will defense is useless against objects and anything without a mind. Etc.

A trend I will continue to see as unpalatable, no matter how many people like it.

Well, you may be reassured that the trend basically stopped and rolled back a little.

You like 1E, right? Does that mean you prefer its healing rate (a point a day, capped at one month) over the slower OD&D rate (a point every other day)? I seem to recall that you play Level Up/Advanced 5E, is that right? What healing rate do you use in games other than 1E?

 

[overgeeked]

I do not really see the point of such books, I think I would be better off spending my time reading a novel/comic or watching a movie/show and stealing the lore from that.

That's what I was referring to. Or lore books for settings that include the kind of deeper monster lore people from the 2E era loved.

 

[overgeeked]

See, they do, if they are consistent and in line with the intended play/narrative experience. Of course, in practise, most RPG rules are utter trash, and the added minutia just detracts from the experience.

They literally do not...for the exact reasons you explain in the rest of your post. Most RPG rules are utter trash that get in the way of the experience because they are not consistent and generally fight against the intended play/narrative experience.

Rules do not reduce arguments. Players who can be mature, respect the decisions of the referee, and/or are on the same page as the referee reduce arguments. Players who are not mature, who do not respect the decisions of the referee, and/or are not on the same page as the referee increase arguments.

Pointing to a rulebook is not the only way, nor even the most efficient way, to get everyone on the same page. It's just the one we're most used to in tabletop RPGs.

I disagree. What you mean is that if the table has agreed to limit the play/narrative experience, either through agreed table buy-in or through the table agreeing to limit it due to the adoption of a limited play experience provided by those rules, then that consistency happens.

But that's not a function of the rules qua rules. That's a function of the a priori limiting.

Put another way- running an AP is not a railroad if the table agrees to run the AP. Blades in the Dark is a great match of ruleset to fiction, but that's because everyone has already agreed to run a heist game in Duskvol.

Exactly.

Purpose built games just work better because they integrate the fiction into the rules, one reinforces the other. There are fewer arguments because both everyone's drastically more on the same page from the jump but also because what rules are there are crystal clear and laser focused on delivering on this one style of play and play experience.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't see that at all. I agree with Pemerton that the books and rules explicitly are trying to give us a good game experience in simulating fantasy fiction, but they're still representing fiction. They lean more Gamist than Simulationist than AD&D or 3E, and clearly they were further down that axis than a lot of gamers preferred. But this is more a change of degree rather than kind, IMO. Short Rests are still Rests. Objects are immune to Poison, Necrotic, and Psychic damage. Anything that targets the Will defense is useless against objects and anything without a mind. Etc.


Well, you may be reassured that the trend basically stopped and rolled back a little.

You like 1E, right? Does that mean you prefer its healing rate (a point a day) over the slower OD&D rate (a point every other day)? I seem to recall that you play Level Up/Advanced 5E, is that right? What healing rate do you use in games other than 1E?

I do like 1e, and my preference for natural healing is slow, 1e or OD&D would be fine. My favorite version is the OSR game Adventurer Conquerer King System, which is a bit more complicated but makes sense to me (and I would be happy to explain it upon request). When I play Level Up, I am experimenting with slower methods of healing, but mostly I go with the 5e method, because my players are resistant to rules that make their PCs lives harder, as many, many players are. I don't agree, and would be happy with slow healing, permanent wounds, and the like as a player myself, but sometimes you have to go along to get along.

 

[overgeeked]

<WhyDon'tWeHaveBoth.gif

It's not really an either/or situation for me; I tend to do both in equal measure. So I'd get the same amount of use out of a stats-heavy/lore light Monster Manual as I would a lore-heavy/stats-light Monster Manual. (shrug)

I agree. Though you generally run into space / page-count problems. You generally don't have room for a lot of lore and a huge, detailed stat block for monsters...at least if you're doing any reasonable amount of monsters in the one book. Or you end up with a 500+ page book. For a digital-only release, sure...why not. But any print options would be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Scribe]

Wild thread topic migration

Let me know when we get back to the faction war at Wizards HQ.

 

[darjr]

Wild thread topic migration

Let me know when we get back to the faction war at Wizards HQ.

As long as we don’t cover the grey tide!

Maybe I could trip it?!

 

[CleverNickName]

I agree. Though you generally run into space / page-count problems. You generally don't have room for a lot of lore and a huge, detailed stat block for monsters...at least if you're doing any reasonable amount of monsters in the one book. Or you end up with a 500+ page book. For a digital-only release, sure...why not. But any print options would be prohibitively expensive.

Yeah, it's true. I think that's why I really enjoyed those old Creature Crucible products of the 80s/90s, or the more recent Fizban's Treasury of Dragons and Glory of the Giants. The reception for these products has been rather lukewarm, but I really appreciated how--through a narrowed focus--those books were able to provide both a rich lore and abundant stats. I'd love to see more, like:

Nihiloor's Codex of the Illithids: a deep-dive into mind flayers. Their history, society, mythos, and more, complete with stats for all the many (MANY) types of illithids from the Elder Brain all the way down to the smallest tadpoles, new rules options for psionics and aberrant character backgrounds for the players to enjoy...

Slarkrethel's Guide to the Undersea: Everyone's favorite kraken gives us a tour of the underwater kingdoms of the realm, with lots of info on geography of the Purple Rocks, the struggles between merfolk, tritons, sahuagin, and kuo'toa, the eldritch origins of the aboleths and krakens, loads of history and lore of undersea creatures, stats for hordes of aquatic creatures, new rules options, some new druid subclasses...

Nerull's Necronomicon: A deep delve into the world of the living dead. Obviously we would need new spells and character creation options, sure, but also: cultists and necromantic factions, the lore behind the ancient mummy lords, NPC liches and vampires ready to pounce on your unsuspecting heroes. Throw in some maps of tombs, vaults, and temples, maybe a couple of pre-written adventures...

Contact me directly, Wizards of the Coast. I have oodles of ideas, and they can be yours for a small consulting fee.

 

[Zaukrie]

I find it interesting both monster, lore, books feature almost exclusively high level creatures, in dragons and giants..... When very few campaigns make it past level ten.

Luckily Nord games, kobold press, and others exist....

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, it's true. I think that's why I really enjoyed those old Creature Crucible products of the 80s/90s, or the more recent Fizban's Treasury of Dragons and Glory of the Giants. The reception for these products has been rather lukewarm, but I really appreciated how--through a narrowed focus--are able to provide both a rich lore and abundant stats.

The problem I run into with these books is I can homebrew my own stats and I'm not particularly interested in the lore WotC is putting out. I have stacks of TSR-era books filled with lore.

Contact me directly, Wizards of the Coast. I have oodles of ideas, and they can be yours for a small consulting fee.

Hopefully "small" here is relative. Small to them, not small to you.