D&D 4E Ben Riggs' "What the Heck Happened with 4th Edition?" seminar at Gen Con 2023

[deganawida]

Speaking of bad marketing. Ok, so this might be me hallucinating or misremembering events back then (it was 16 years ago and my ADHD butt has issues recalling clearly what happened 3 years ago).

I swear I remember reading something back when 4e was coming out, where some of the designers said that if you were using skills outside of combat you were "playing the game wrong". Now in hindsight, they might have been talking about skill challenges and were being misunderstood. However I remember this clearly as the quote "playing the game wrong" royally pissed off everyone in my campus RPG club, and I've run into people who swear they remember that quote as well. But...sigh..."Berenstain Bears" if you know what I mean. I've never found a record of it so...

So am I crazy or does anyone else remember this? And if so, what from??? Because I remember that this really pissed us off back then and was one of the reasons why we didn't give 4e a second glance when it first came out.

I seem to recall something where they were giving guidance that skill checks were not to be used unless there was a real risk for failure. That was a big change from 3.x.

 

[Red Castle]

Like I said. In hindsight, I think something from the interview had been misunderstood and that they were talking about skill challenges or similar.
But I recall it coming across really bad at the time. But maybe we misunderstood the quote. But that one line "playing the game wrong" is something that stuck with me ever since then.
(edit) And after reading the 2 "wizards presents" books, that quote doesn't fit with what the designers wrote in those books. So I'm leaning towards my group misunderstanding what we read back then.

Yep, probably a big misunderstanding because there is a lengthy part of the PHB that describe each skills and how to use it (and most of their use description is out of combat) and there is a lengthy part of both DMG that talk about skill challenge and most of the examples are out of combat example... so I really can't see how they could have said that using the skills, or making a skill challenge, out of combat was playing the game wrong since all their books pointed otherwise...

But I remember that there was a lot of people that thought that the game was only focused on combat and didn't care about roleplay, so maybe it was a quote taken out of context that some people twisted to fit their argument (that the designer were evil people that wanted to kill roleplay).

 

[the Jester]

I seem to recall something where they were giving guidance that skill checks were not to be used unless there was a real risk for failure. That was a big change from 3.x.

I remember the infamous "Stop talking to the guards and get to the fun part" advice. As if roleplaying and talking to the guards isn't the fun part for anyone.

 

[James Gasik]

I could introduce you to players who fall asleep until the DM says "roll for initiative", lol.

 

[thenightgaunt]

Yep, probably a big misunderstanding because there is a lengthy part of the PHB that describe each skills and how to use it (and most of their use description is out of combat) and there is a lengthy part of both DMG that talk about skill challenge and most of the examples are out of combat example... so I really can't see how they could have said that using the skills, or making a skill challenge, out of combat was playing the game wrong since all their books pointed otherwise...

But I remember that there was a lot of people that thought that the game was only focused on combat and didn't care about roleplay, so maybe it was a quote taken out of context that some people twisted to fit their argument (that the designer were evil people that wanted to kill roleplay).

I'd say this was from some time the year before the PHB came out. So it had to be sometime in late 2007 to early 2008. We weren't involved in the playtest at the time so knowing when that came out isn't a help sadly. But all we knew at that time was the little bits that had been released, and what the designers were saying in interviews.

I remember it being a direct quote from some interview, like one of those online IGN PR-Hype interviews meant just to tease a product. But this was text not video and I want to say it was with 2 of the designers from 4e? The issue is it's been 16 years. I'd swear I remember this because it was a big thing at the time in my club. But yeah, in hindsight it was likely a misunderstanding, but if it was then whatever point they were trying to get across was really badly worded.

That's why I mention it as a part of the "bad 4e marketing" part of the conversation.

 

[M.L. Martin]

The quote in question appears to be from Logan Bonner's comments on skills in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes, p. 68.

The third problem is the skill list, which is full of skills that are either too similar to others or just plain useless. Part of this is because the system is meant to work for player characters, nonplayer characters, and monsters. But when's the last time you saw a PC make a Profession check that had a useful effect on the game? (Hint: If it was recently, your game is probably not as much fun as D&D should be. Sorry.)

 

[billd91]

The quote in question appears to be from Logan Bonner's comments on skills in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes, p. 68.

They really were tone deaf from the get-go with their marketing. Badwrongfun right out of the gate.

 

[thenightgaunt]

The quote in question appears to be from Logan Bonner's comments on skills in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes, p. 68.

Thank you. That one is familiar (But then I did finally read that book last year), but I'm not sure if that's what sparked the moment back then. It doesn't resonate with the memory if you know what I mean.

But that could be it. It does have that same WTF feel to it. Like, one of the designers declaring that your way of enjoying the game is bad. Huh, if it's not from Wizards Presents Races and Classes, I wonder if it was something else that guy said publicly in an interview?

 

[darjr]

Bob the World Builder stumbled upon 4e advertising videos. His calm delivery juxtaposed with the advertising content makes the advertising somehow worse.

 

[darjr]

And I keep seeing signs.