Best Two Combat Feats for a Level 1 Human Rogue?

[Darklone]

Sometimes (tactical positioning, perhaps hidden behind the door) you can ready (for the enemies attack) a 5ft step and an attack from flanking position while the enemies close. In that case, your next full attack action (preferably with a reach weapon) will come before the enemies dish back.

A 5ft step back with reach will keep you out of range in case your enemy does not have reach. Otherwise: Go the Spiked Chain route and Spring attack and ask your buddy DM after some beer for the chainmaster prestige class with TWF for the Spiked Chain.

 

[Al]

Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Initiative

The combat rogue has one principal function- to deal as many sneak attacks as possible. Unless your opponents have an AC of 17-19, two-weapon fighting is superior to one-weapon fighting. Given that you can't use a shield in any case, two-weapon fighting is a good one to go for...since sneak attack applies to every attack, you have a damage potential of some 4d6+3 per round if sneak attacking (17 points) more than anything short of a raging barbarian with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon (ok, or a non-raging 20 Str half-orc wielding a two-handed weapon with Power Attack- happy?)

Improved Initiative is the necessary corollary of this. Initiative is critical at the low levels. A single sneak attack (average 9 points) can take out many opponents; with 8 hit points, a single hit can frequently take you out. Acting first is pivotal.

Remember: combat rogues should always go for as many sneak attacks as possible. Follow this pattern and you too can have rogue combat-machines of upward of 100d6 damage (6 attacks + Expert Tactician, each dealing d6 + 10d6 sneak + magic + str etc.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Initiative

I absolutely, unreservedly agree with this. Imp Init needs to be first on your list, followed either by TWF or a serious commitment to a ranged combat tree.

While spiked chain rogues are reasonably deadly, I have found that the investment into this weapon is not worth it without several levels of fighter. Given that straight rogue is such a good class (skills, SA, higher levels give you great abilities like slippery mind, opportunist, etc.), I'd say just capitalize on the rogue's main combat ability: sneak attack.

Mind you, I tend to prefer a ranged combat rogue throwing daggers, since while uncanny dodge does negate your SA ability, you don't need to worry about flanking and you can't be full-attacked in return except by an archer. If you go ranged, I'd suggest Imp Init and Quick Draw as your first feats, followed by Point Blank Shot at 3rd level, Rapid Shot at 6th level, and then Precise and Improved Precise Shot later down the line. (Being able to ignore concealment makes you a VERY deadly sneak attacker, since concealment is perhaps the cheapest way for your opponents to avoid SA in general.)

I would actively not suggest Combat Expertise or Weapon Finesse. Your BAB is not good enough to make Combat Expertise worth it except as a prereq for Improved Feint, and Improved Feint just isn't that good. You're better off going first and full-sneak attacking against a flatfooted opponent than feinting. If you really want to be a feint specialist, and non-core books are available down the line, go with the Invisible Blade PrC from The Complete Warrior, which gives you an even better version of Improved Feint as a PrC ability.

As for Weapon Finesse: Even assuming you qualified for the feat, you don't get enough mileage out of it. Even assuming you bump your Dex to 18, the feat confers at most a +2 bonus to hit; nice, but not commensurate with the benefits conferred by other available feats.

 

[Darklone]

Ruleslawyer, I agree with most of your ranged combat suggestions, but why Quickdraw and Improved Init first? I thought PBS would be a non-brainer and TWF at level 3 is enough instead of Rapid Shot... Quickdraw isn't needed before you get more than two attacks by iterative BAB.

 

[jgsugden]

Something I mentioned about II that I think I should expound upon:

Improved Initiative is less useful for rogues because they already have a high dexterity (and thus a high initiative modifier).

As an example, Bob has a dex of 11 and Tim has a dex of 10. Out of 400 possible dice combinations for their initiative rolls, Bob will go first in 210 of the 400 combinations (52.5%). If Bob gains improved initiative, he'll go first in 280 of the 400 combinations (70%).

If Bob instead started with an 19 dexterity and Tim was still at his 10 dexterity to begin, without improved initiative Bob would go first in 280 of the 400 combinations (70%). With improved initiative, Bob would go first in 334 of the 400 combinations (83.5%).

If Bob started with a dex of 11, his improvement in the times he goes first will rise from 52.5% to 70% - an increase of 17.5 times out of 100. If he started out with a 19 dex, his increase is from 70% to 83.5% - an increase of only 13.5 times in 100.

If Bob started out with a 35 dex (halfling rogue, 19 base dex, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 raises), he'd go first in 372 of the 400 combinations (93%). II would only increase that to 98.5% - a 5.5% increase - an event that will take effect in roughly 1 in 20 battles ... or less often than 1/level (if you follow the 13 encounters per level suggestions in the DMG).

Going first is very nice, but if you plan to have a very high dex in higher levels, the benefit of II begins to fade away as you advance. You end up with a wizard/sleep problem: It may be useful early on, but as you advance in experience, it becomes less and less useful.

 

[Storm Raven]

Could go ranged combatant: Point blank and Precise shot... ranged flanking/sneak attack can be particularly lethal. Rapid shot later...

You cannot flank with a ranged weapon.

 

[Trainz]

The Invisible Blade prestige class from the Complete Warrior is the rogue's best option.

A rogue doesn't really care about the base damage of his weapon, he knows he'll get screwed against immune-to-crit beasts. If you accept that, the 5 levels of Invisible Blade will allow you to feint as a free action. Meaning that all you dagger attacks are potential sneaks, where with Improved Feint you will only be able to sneak attack once per round.

What's more, while you take those 5 levels, your sneak attack damage also improves, so you're not delaying that much your rogue abilities.

 

[Shadeus]

The Invisible Blade prestige class from the Complete Warrior is the rogue's best option.

A rogue doesn't really care about the base damage of his weapon, he knows he'll get screwed against immune-to-crit beasts. If you accept that, the 5 levels of Invisible Blade will allow you to feint as a free action. Meaning that all you dagger attacks are potential sneaks, where with Improved Feint you will only be able to sneak attack once per round.

What's more, while you take those 5 levels, your sneak attack damage also improves, so you're not delaying that much your rogue abilities.

I've been looking a rogue that took the 5 levels of invisible blade and then took a level or two in master thrower to be a true master of the dagger/knife. The only problem with master thrower is you lose that sneak attack progression, so maybe 1-2 levels of it only.

 

[LokiDR]

Something I mentioned about II that I think I should expound upon:

Improved Initiative is less useful for rogues because they already have a high dexterity (and thus a high initiative modifier).

As an example, Bob has a dex of 11 and Tim has a dex of 10. Out of 400 possible dice combinations for their initiative rolls, Bob will go first in 210 of the 400 combinations (52.5%). If Bob gains improved initiative, he'll go first in 280 of the 400 combinations (70%).

If Bob instead started with an 19 dexterity and Tim was still at his 10 dexterity to begin, without improved initiative Bob would go first in 280 of the 400 combinations (70%). With improved initiative, Bob would go first in 334 of the 400 combinations (83.5%).

If Bob started with a dex of 11, his improvement in the times he goes first will rise from 52.5% to 70% - an increase of 17.5 times out of 100. If he started out with a 19 dex, his increase is from 70% to 83.5% - an increase of only 13.5 times in 100.

If Bob started out with a 35 dex (halfling rogue, 19 base dex, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +5 raises), he'd go first in 372 of the 400 combinations (93%). II would only increase that to 98.5% - a 5.5% increase - an event that will take effect in roughly 1 in 20 battles ... or less often than 1/level (if you follow the 13 encounters per level suggestions in the DMG).

Going first is very nice, but if you plan to have a very high dex in higher levels, the benefit of II begins to fade away as you advance. You end up with a wizard/sleep problem: It may be useful early on, but as you advance in experience, it becomes less and less useful.

I see this as a "prepare for epic" kind of problem. At those kinds of extreems, like 35 dex, the whole scale gets skewed. This isn't about the extreems where you are favored (initive vs fighter) it is about where you are not. Kelimazu, demon assasin from MMII, has a base dex of 35. Would your rather be more or less likely to win the initive contest? The rogue needs to focus on his strengths, and that would be initive or sneak attack and initive. Trying to generalize with feats makes mediocre characters, not good ones.

Given the available concepts and what Greyline said he wanted to play, II & TWF would be the best choices. From there, you can go into the throwing rout or the straight dagger stabbin. TWF helps both, and II gets you those all important opening round SAs against as many oppents as possible. Weapon finess in the future would be good if your dex starts to get really high. I'll agree on the points about combat expertise/imp. feint, it just isn't useful enough.

 

[silentspace]

My 2 cents: For a first level rogue, the feats which will contribute most to your survival are improved initiative and two weapon fighting. As a rogue, your hp is not too good, and most likely you're very lightly armored (to cut down on armor check penalties). In a fight you'll need to hit first and hit hard.

Another option if you have another, tougher scout in your party who'll be up front with you is improved initiative and point blank shot. This will allow you to sneak range attack and take a 5' step back.

As others pointed out, there are other options for you that will help you get good feat combinations in the future, but since you're starting this game at first level, it makes sense to pick feats that give you the most bang for your buck now, not later, no?