ruleslawyer
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Best Two Combat Feats for a Level 1 Human Rogue?
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jgsugden
Legend
I wouldn't call the diminishing returns of II a 'preparing for epic' issue. The diminished returns on II for a rogue start to take effect around levels 8 to 10 when the rogue starts to get significant enhancement bonuses and natural ability score advancement to their dexterity. At a certain point, improving your initiative score will result in a difference so rarely that it is not worth the cost of a feat to gain that improvement. Where this point is will be a function of campaign design.
At levels 8 to 16, we're probably talking about a difference between roughly a +8 or +12 initiative roll. How many times will that +8 not be enough, even versus foes with a +4 initiative modifier?
Also: Remember that you don't need to go before all your foes - just before one foe that is a good target for a sneak attack. Your tumble should get you past any AoOs from any foes that do manage to beat your initiative roll.
Each campaign style is different, each fighting style is different, each set of abilities (and equipment) for PCs is different, etc ... In other words, YMMV, but in my experience, the II feat is useless at medium and high levels so often that it would be better to have another feat.
Of course, if you want a 'prepare for epic' issue, it is a prerequisite for dire charge (aka: PC pounce) ... which is *sooooooo* nice for an epic rogue.
At levels 8 to 16, we're probably talking about a difference between roughly a +8 or +12 initiative roll. How many times will that +8 not be enough, even versus foes with a +4 initiative modifier?
Also: Remember that you don't need to go before all your foes - just before one foe that is a good target for a sneak attack. Your tumble should get you past any AoOs from any foes that do manage to beat your initiative roll.
Each campaign style is different, each fighting style is different, each set of abilities (and equipment) for PCs is different, etc ... In other words, YMMV, but in my experience, the II feat is useless at medium and high levels so often that it would be better to have another feat.
Of course, if you want a 'prepare for epic' issue, it is a prerequisite for dire charge (aka: PC pounce) ... which is *sooooooo* nice for an epic rogue.
Seule
Explorer
Actually, I believe you are still using 3.0 math here, in 3.5 initiative bonuses are all that matter for breaking ties in initiative, so an 11 Dex is no advantage over 10, but Improved Initiative just got better.jgsugden said:
On the subject of what feats to take, I have to recommend the quarterstaff route. The advantages have already been pointed out.
And the two weapon feat works for thrown daggers, as has already been pointed out, so you are set for ranged and melee combat. Your choice for second feat would depend on whether you plan on using ranged or melee combat more, I'd suggest point blank shot or dodge.
--Seule
Rashak Mani
First Post
I have a pure combat rogue with good str and spiked chain... and I agree with what someone said that a few fighter levels would have helped me a lot. Though against many medium or weak opponents his effectiveness is very very good.
In campaigns with fewer and tougher monsters Rogues have a much harder time hitting and surviving. Magic becomes necessary to boost attacks and AC.
As for Improved Initiative... I disagree its that good. Naturally its fine and good to get those flat footed opponents... but in many campaigns you are unlikely to drop them quick. When you have very high initiative you risk becoming the sole availabe target if your group is slow to come forward. With lousy AC your Rogue becomes mincemeat.
TWF also means having that -2 penalties in both attacks... not sure its good.
In campaigns with fewer and tougher monsters Rogues have a much harder time hitting and surviving. Magic becomes necessary to boost attacks and AC.
As for Improved Initiative... I disagree its that good. Naturally its fine and good to get those flat footed opponents... but in many campaigns you are unlikely to drop them quick. When you have very high initiative you risk becoming the sole availabe target if your group is slow to come forward. With lousy AC your Rogue becomes mincemeat.
TWF also means having that -2 penalties in both attacks... not sure its good.
IMO the best feats for a rogue at 1st level are:
Improved Initiative and Point Blank Shot.
I disagree with the opinion that II is not that significant for characters with high Dex (like rogues). It decreases the chance of having a poor initiative and with the fact that the refocus action no longer exists in 3.5 the initiative roll you first make is most likely the one you will have for the entire combat. When you engage creatures that are hasted or have II them selves it helps to mitigate the initiative loss.
Point Blank Shot is very useful because it gives +1 attack/damage up to 30’, which is the very same range as a sneak attack can be applied with a ranged weapon.
Combat Expertise is not very useful to a rogue, IMO, except that it is a prereq for Improved Feint, which is a useful feat. CE will allow subtracting up to 5 from the character’s BAB to add to his defense. Note this is his BAB not his total bonus to attacks. IMO Dodge is more useful for defense purposes.
Rapid Shot is a useful feat at later levels. It will give the rogue an extra attack and if w/i 30’ with the Point Blank Shot feat the rogue will have a –1 to each attack and a +1 to damage for each attack and still get to apply his sneak attack to the first attack.
Two weapon fighting doesn’t really add to a rogue unless he has enough hit points to survive a melee. The sneak attack bonus only applies to one attack in a round not to all of his attacks.
Using a ranged weapons would still work with an assassin character, even better if a few levels of ranger are thrown in.
Improved Initiative and Point Blank Shot.
I disagree with the opinion that II is not that significant for characters with high Dex (like rogues). It decreases the chance of having a poor initiative and with the fact that the refocus action no longer exists in 3.5 the initiative roll you first make is most likely the one you will have for the entire combat. When you engage creatures that are hasted or have II them selves it helps to mitigate the initiative loss.
Point Blank Shot is very useful because it gives +1 attack/damage up to 30’, which is the very same range as a sneak attack can be applied with a ranged weapon.
Combat Expertise is not very useful to a rogue, IMO, except that it is a prereq for Improved Feint, which is a useful feat. CE will allow subtracting up to 5 from the character’s BAB to add to his defense. Note this is his BAB not his total bonus to attacks. IMO Dodge is more useful for defense purposes.
Rapid Shot is a useful feat at later levels. It will give the rogue an extra attack and if w/i 30’ with the Point Blank Shot feat the rogue will have a –1 to each attack and a +1 to damage for each attack and still get to apply his sneak attack to the first attack.
Two weapon fighting doesn’t really add to a rogue unless he has enough hit points to survive a melee. The sneak attack bonus only applies to one attack in a round not to all of his attacks.
Using a ranged weapons would still work with an assassin character, even better if a few levels of ranger are thrown in.
silentspace
First Post
Darklone said:
Others have suggested the Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack with polearm route. A first level human fighter with Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack and a polearm kicks butt. I don't see going that route with a rogue though.
Two Weapon Defense is better than Dodge, since it applies to every opponent, not just one.
Tumble is just as good if not better than Mobility, even at low levels.
Spring Attack is less useful if you get surprise and win initiative. You can charge in the surprise round, then attack and tumble away in the first round. (Actually, I'm more likely to full attack with TWF in the first round, but some play more cautiously.) So Spring Attack wouldn't become useful until the second or third round of combat.
Darklone
Registered User
Mobile rogues usually only should get eaten by one opponent at once, so Dodge isn't that bad IMHO 
The Spring Attack routine for rogues depends largely on the other tanks in the team (see my example above with the TWF dwarven ftr/rog and the spring attacking bbn/rogs with greatswords).
The Spring Attack routine for rogues depends largely on the other tanks in the team (see my example above with the TWF dwarven ftr/rog and the spring attacking bbn/rogs with greatswords).
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