Black Box GMing - Would you play with it?

[Theo R Cwithin]

If you're looking for recommendations on lite systems, there's also Altars & Archetypes (8 pages), which is inspired by things like Risus and Simple20. I've never played it, but it intrigues me-- and iirc a few people around here play it.

 

[nnms]

If you're looking for recommendations on lite systems, there's also Altars & Archetypes (8 pages), which is inspired by things like Risus and Simple20. I've never played it, but it intrigues me-- and iirc a few people around here play it.

Now that's the kind of system I'm talking about.

When I read these ultra-light systems, I begin to wonder whether or not a black box approach is worth it as a player who buys into something like A&A or Risus is probably a greater asset if they know the system.

Another reason why this has piqued my interest is an exercise in description. It's a good skill for RPGs and playing in black box GM mode means that practice is going to happen.

I'm still not sure if I should send an email off to my wider gaming circle or if I should do this online via voice chat of some sort. Or both, I guess. I've been in a game where a person telecommuted with a webcam.

 

[jadrax]

There was a fad for this sort of thing around here in the 90s. A lot of people seemed to get really into it. Then GMs worked out just how much extra work it was and it kind of died on the vine.

I did not really have that many issues on it, although I think there is often a raw visceral pleasure in rolling your own dice, which it denied me.

 

[Choranzanus]

Yes, I have played this way and I DM this way and it is my prefered style to do things. There is a few caveats thought:

1)Players like to roll the dice, to have their own destiny in their own hands so I let them roll the dice. I did the "I roll all the dice" thing for some time, but it didnt work well. As a DM, I dont really have any stakes in the result. In fact now I think maybe players should roll all the dice.
2)Blackbox DM can be difficult if you are running a strongly tactical game (which in fact I do), because to have tactic you need to predict at least somewhat what happens if you do this or that. Knowing game mechanics can obviously help you with that. I think a lot of tactically minded players dont like the idea because they dont like second guessing the DM. You have to give players information they need, they need to know what they are capable of doing and what not. You have to be careful that they are second guessing NPCs and monsters, instead of DM whim. For example the type of character creation you describe looks like no gain to me.

 

[Dordledum]

The idea of a no-dice, no-rules, purely narrative campaign does sound very cool, but it's not for everyone I guess.

I'd love to try it as a player, but wouldn't feel comfortable to DM it (I think).

We have a group of very vocal players, and when DM and players or players amongst each other don't agree about a specific call, I like to have a core rule or a die-roll to decide.

 

[nnms]

So you do a partial black box?

1) Players create their characters normally
2) Still roll dice

So what part of it is handled on your end? Do the players not know the meaning of the die rolls they are making? Couldn't a session allow them to figure out the system?

I'm still thinking I will try a total black box approach, just to see how it goes, but I'm still not convinced it would be worth the trouble.

 

[Loonook]

I actually do this with my nephews... I setup a basic adventure framework, using Wounds over ..

And fog-of-war about 200 dice rolls. I run a random die-roller, print the results for 200 rolls. I keep the sheet covered. I know the Target for each specifics (reduced for the type of creature being attacked, and the type of character being used). They come up with something cool/novel? I let them take the best of the next X amount of rolls. I translate Wounds for the character/Successes for the events by:

Wounds (creatures) - Maximum HP/ 2*(weapon damage).
Wounds (PCs) - 3*Lvl.

So we'll take a basic one... They wanted to play two warrior brothers hunting a Dragon. They wanted to be Knights, and had a Wise Old Wizard with them.

The Wizard could throw bolts of lightning (the older nephew thought that was quite awesome!)... And do 5 wound as long as the Dragon didn't dodge it, or use his magic powers to reflect it back at them (apparently this is something Dragons do that I was not aware of... their scales are shiny, so they shoot the lightning back like a mirror according to my players).

So the Dragon was fighting the two noble Warriors and their friends who came along with them (two dwarves who were very gnomish and inspired by the two statues outside, the Wise Old Wizard's friend who may or may not resemble a Real American Hero, and a big dog who could talk).

Overall, the Dragon had (304/16) - 19 wound! He could Reflect the wizard's magic (and the dwarven musket fire) on a 10 or higher, and was trapped inside a giant tower filled with a the Wise Old Wizard's students:

Overall, a really awesome game. I really think that cards could be a good mechanic for this also, but having a cool scroll that allowed them to do stuff seemed to be a big hit (even if occasional peeking may have occurred).

Overall prep work? Probably a bathroom break for every hour or two. The game lasted for three months when I would see them both, had a couple of other players come and go... And was a blast. I may have to bring Dread into the equation, or Fudge when they get a bit better at the whole 'bookkeeping' thing... But really all we do is randomly generate on-the-spot results. If we do not KNOW the numbers that come up beforehand 80% of the slowness of the Black Box is fixed out of the gate... Just generate a couple hundred random rolls each session, 30-40 weapon damage per player, and 10-20 for each creature to be encountered damagewise.

As long as you don't peek the whole thing is ready and rearing to go. All that you need to do is put on the occasional bonuses/penalties/advantage/disadvantages and you have a game in a box.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[nnms]

[MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION] - Fantastic post.

Just the other day my friend apologized after a session he DMed that he used a random die roller on his android phone rather than rolling dice. I guess he thought that it wasn't "real" enough compared to using dice. None of the players had an issue. I then told him that I remember reading in some article or somewhere, years ago, about using a computer to spit out a whole page of each die size and just scratch them off one at a time instead of rolling. And now you just reminded me of the exact same thing.

I definitely think using print outs of random number series is a pretty good way to go for speeding things up. The game I'm thinking of trying this out with uses only 6 sided dice, so that's one big sheet of random numbers.

And of course lightning bounces off of shiney dragon scales. That's awesome.

 

[Loonook]

[MENTION=1861]Loonook[/MENTION] - Fantastic post.

Just the other day my friend apologized after a session he DMed that he used a random die roller on his android phone rather than rolling dice. I guess he thought that it wasn't "real" enough compared to using dice. None of the players had an issue. I then told him that I remember reading in some article or somewhere, years ago, about using a computer to spit out a whole page of each die size and just scratch them off one at a time instead of rolling. And now you just reminded me of the exact same thing.

I definitely think using print outs of random number series is a pretty good way to go for speeding things up. The game I'm thinking of trying this out with uses only 6 sided dice, so that's one big sheet of random numbers.

And of course lightning bounces off of shiney dragon scales. That's awesome.

Really the reason behind it that I had initially setup was because I lacked extra dice to give to them... Then I sat back, realized that you could in theory generate an entire game with a roll pack, and not have to worry about it.

Dice exist because they were the most useful way to randomize at a time when PCs were in their infancy and too ponderous to take about. On this sweet device I can listen to music, write, chat with my friends from around the world... but I cannot use its ability to perform more calculations and 'rolls' than I can hope to in years of multidice rolls... To my benefit?

If I generate a sheet of rolls, just basic ones, via randomization on a simple excel sheet for 2 characters... I'm approaching almost 1000 d20 rolls/pg. If I played with my nephews using that sheet I may run through one every... 7-8 sessions? Rolling for EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING . Of course, if each player gets a generated sheet or three at the beginning of the average gaming year they would be good to go.

No muss, no fuss... No cocked dice, no 'it rolled off the table', and no fudging. Now, in theory, your entire character year is 'plotted' for you ahead of time...

But we don't mind that in any other game. I really feel that the ability to take the dice out of the hands of everyone and leave them to a random generator speeds up the game immensely. I need to roll a Reflex Save for 12 individuals? All I need to do is have a line marking the party's Reflex bonuses on a little sheet... match it up... and then compare it to the DC. I can carry a sheaf of sheets around pregenerated that could run a decade of games.. And once the sheet has been used?

I pitch it.

If we eliminated just the d20 through such generation, removing the need to physically roll saves, attacks, skills, etc... Then if damage is generated also... And effects... Heck, how many times do you roll a d4? d12? Percentiles?

Oh what a quick game you can run. And you can provide for completely different types of benefits in combat. Of course it does require a goodly bit of DM trust, but all 'rolls' are visible at the beginning, middle, and end of each session... And it doesn't actually affect the state of play save for the removal of fudging.

FUDGE dice/d6/d10 can also be generated... Of course, since you're probably rolling more you'll need to generate a sheet more quickly.

Again, the DM must be trusted to not screw on rolls, but you can confirm all rolls via the Sheets. And half a ream of paper just eliminated an empire campaign (or more) set of rolls.

Leaving time for, you know, roleplaying .

[MENTION=83293]nnms[/MENTION]: I have to say that seeing the complete lack of focus on a die leading to the declaration that shiny scales reflect back spells and wands was glorious. Definitely made me smile .

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Yeah, sure, I'll play anything once. Assuming I happen to know a DM who wants to run black-box.