Sacrosanct
Legend
Tell that to the 76ers
I don't it's been working very well for them.And yes, us sports fans who are also gamers are rare
D&D 5E Blow it up! What class need to be completely re-worked in 5e?
Tell that to the 76ers
I don't it's been working very well for them.And yes, us sports fans who are also gamers are rare
well all I can say is that your party is way above the cap right now and you better slay those warriors again because they made fun of my state.
Mercule
Adventurer
To address the OP:
Barbarian - kill it. Seriously. The rage should be put into a Fighter subclass. Also, why do totems only work if you have anger management issues? It's a hot mess.
Bard - Mixed feelings. I kind of enjoy them, but they really are kind of a weird concept. Keep them so you don't have to have Clerics for heal bots. Maybe make them a bit more druid-y and a bit less skill monkey.
Cleric - Blow it up. Remove turn undead (not Channel Divinity, just turning); maybe leave it for a domain or two, but nuke it from the core class. Also, less tanky. Either reserve the heavy armor for war domain only (what complete freaking imbecile decided a Life Cleric should have heavy armor?) or give the base class only light armor and grant medium armor to anyone currently getting heavy.
Druid - Blow it up. I think this one is beyond salvaging. Just go ahead and make it the home of all the weird nature things that don't go anywhere else. Pick your subclass: Shifter, Totem, Animal Companion, Spells. Pick one. Shut up because no one loves you, anyway.
Fighter - Someone has to be the best at fighting. These guys should be it.
Monk - Erm... Dunno. The class doesn't suck, but maybe it should be moved into a supplement. Maybe the one with the Mystic.
Paladin - Keep it, but only so the Cleric doesn't have to have heavy armor. Either that, or just make the player use multiclassing to get a homicidal priest.
Ranger - Aragorn. With the Barbarian dead and the pets moved to the hippy Druids, the Ranger is free to be the hardest SOB to kill in the game. Sure, they can do reasonable damage. Not as much as the Fighter or the Rogue -- at least not all at once. They'll just live long enough for it to balance out.
Rogue - Thief and skill monkey. The sneak attack is nice, but there shouldn't actually be a debate about whether a swashbuckler (swordsman) would be better built using the Fighter class or not (hint: if your job is to stick the other guy with a weapon, use the Fighter).
Sorcerer - The original purpose was to make spell slots suck less. 5E has obsoleted this need, so nuke at will. If you're going to keep it, then make the mechanics actually play out like someone with magic running through their blood. Casting spells just like a Wizard does not capture that feel. Either excuse them from VSM or give them a new power structure. Either way, when it's all done, it'll probably make a great Psion, too.
Warlock - Aren't these guys just Sorcerers with a lease? The original Warlock was awesome because the core premise was magic without resource management. That's not what we got in 5E. Either put it back to zero resource management or merge it with Sorcerer and make them late bloomers.
Wizard - They finally fixed Vancian slots! But, they broke the schools of magic. The Evoker needs to be kicked in the junk. Maybe keep the schools, but not structure the sub-classes around them.
Barbarian - kill it. Seriously. The rage should be put into a Fighter subclass. Also, why do totems only work if you have anger management issues? It's a hot mess.
Bard - Mixed feelings. I kind of enjoy them, but they really are kind of a weird concept. Keep them so you don't have to have Clerics for heal bots. Maybe make them a bit more druid-y and a bit less skill monkey.
Cleric - Blow it up. Remove turn undead (not Channel Divinity, just turning); maybe leave it for a domain or two, but nuke it from the core class. Also, less tanky. Either reserve the heavy armor for war domain only (what complete freaking imbecile decided a Life Cleric should have heavy armor?) or give the base class only light armor and grant medium armor to anyone currently getting heavy.
Druid - Blow it up. I think this one is beyond salvaging. Just go ahead and make it the home of all the weird nature things that don't go anywhere else. Pick your subclass: Shifter, Totem, Animal Companion, Spells. Pick one. Shut up because no one loves you, anyway.
Fighter - Someone has to be the best at fighting. These guys should be it.
Monk - Erm... Dunno. The class doesn't suck, but maybe it should be moved into a supplement. Maybe the one with the Mystic.
Paladin - Keep it, but only so the Cleric doesn't have to have heavy armor. Either that, or just make the player use multiclassing to get a homicidal priest.
Ranger - Aragorn. With the Barbarian dead and the pets moved to the hippy Druids, the Ranger is free to be the hardest SOB to kill in the game. Sure, they can do reasonable damage. Not as much as the Fighter or the Rogue -- at least not all at once. They'll just live long enough for it to balance out.
Rogue - Thief and skill monkey. The sneak attack is nice, but there shouldn't actually be a debate about whether a swashbuckler (swordsman) would be better built using the Fighter class or not (hint: if your job is to stick the other guy with a weapon, use the Fighter).
Sorcerer - The original purpose was to make spell slots suck less. 5E has obsoleted this need, so nuke at will. If you're going to keep it, then make the mechanics actually play out like someone with magic running through their blood. Casting spells just like a Wizard does not capture that feel. Either excuse them from VSM or give them a new power structure. Either way, when it's all done, it'll probably make a great Psion, too.
Warlock - Aren't these guys just Sorcerers with a lease? The original Warlock was awesome because the core premise was magic without resource management. That's not what we got in 5E. Either put it back to zero resource management or merge it with Sorcerer and make them late bloomers.
Wizard - They finally fixed Vancian slots! But, they broke the schools of magic. The Evoker needs to be kicked in the junk. Maybe keep the schools, but not structure the sub-classes around them.
Sacrosanct
Legend
As for my answer, the only class I see needing to blow up is the sorcerer. They are too much like wizards. The whole point of a sorcerer is to channel magic, and spell points are the foundation for this. So get a base sorcerer class that has spell points, and subclasses like:
Rune: creates and combines runes, with each rune costing a certain number of spell points. So you could decide to go nova by blowing most of your spell points in a complex spell of several runes
Totem: create animal totems, the powers of which are invoked by spending spell points (or tattoos instead of physical totems)
Vanilla: your traditional sorcerer like the draconic or elemental sorcerer
Wild Mage: I hate this class, but it would probably fall under here. Spend more spell points for greater stability. Spend only a couple spell points for wacky randomness
Psionics: spend spell points to invoke psionic abilities
Rune: creates and combines runes, with each rune costing a certain number of spell points. So you could decide to go nova by blowing most of your spell points in a complex spell of several runes
Totem: create animal totems, the powers of which are invoked by spending spell points (or tattoos instead of physical totems)
Vanilla: your traditional sorcerer like the draconic or elemental sorcerer
Wild Mage: I hate this class, but it would probably fall under here. Spend more spell points for greater stability. Spend only a couple spell points for wacky randomness
Psionics: spend spell points to invoke psionic abilities
Bacon Bits
Legend
Ranger is the only class that has an anomalous design, which is why it's not surprising that the class was subject to redesigns already. The fact that almost all the class's offensive power (save hunter's mark) comes from the subclass abilities, and that really limits the scope of future designs. Personally, I'm not at all a fan of pet classes, either, and I'm sure that's part of my problem with it. The class is super narrow because it's wedged between Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Bard, and Druid, and that leaves a very, very small design space with which to work. Also, I still don't understand why 1/3 casters get cantrips, but 1/2 casters do not.
Beyond that, it's not really overall class design that's a problem. Just little bits.
Fighter's Indomitable is genuinely the worst ability I've found in 5e in terms of power level and fun, and it's the only ability you get at two different levels.
Berzerker's Exhaustion mechanic is a bit too punitive to be usable very often, making the subclass much less valuable than the Totem warrior.
Valor and Lore Bard are a bit uneven in comparison to each other, but that's mainly because Valor increases diversity and Lore increases focus.
Druids get far too much durability out of Wild Shape. This is a general problem with the Polymorph rules still being pretty broken, however. 4th level spells significantly boosting damage and granting hundreds of temp hp with basically zero downside is just silly.
Life Cleric is much better than the other domains. Light is the only domain that really keeps up. The War cleric should be getting Extra Attack at 8th level; if a Bard can do it, so can a cleric. The clerical spell list is really boring at high level, however.
Paladins being able to Smite multiple times a turn allows a nova ability that's pretty excessive, especially with abilities that allow extra attacks. I've seen other tables limit the ability to once a round.
Five Elements Monk is terrible, as it heavily overloads the Ki pool and the spells are basically cast like you're a 1/2 caster so you're super behind. Wall of stone at level 17 is not impressive.
Sorcerer... Honestly I've never seen anybody play one for more than a session. The number of spells known is seriously restricting, and the spell list just amplifies that fact. Metamagic is a very interesting concept, but the rest of the spell list isn't well executed. Nobody has bothered because it doesn't look very good on paper once you start planning it out.
Warlock does not work well with multiclass rules. Devil's Sight is a silly ability. The "on hit" nature of several invocations and hex combined with the Eldritch Blast cantrip is also very silly. It makes the class do an extraordinary amount of damage, and having played one for a one-shot it feels genuinely like cheating. Beyond that, Pact Magic feels fairly weak due to the short rest nature of it. 2 spell slots until level 11 is dumb. All the Invocations that take spell slots and are limited to 1/day are horribly bad. Pact of the Blade feels very weak due to the loss of Eldritch Blast. Not that you can't do good things with a Bladelock, but man do you have to put effort into the class to do it, and really just love the flavor of the class overall.
Wizard has some uneven subclasses. Abjurer and Diviner are amazing. Illusionist and Transmuter are great. Conjurers are ok, but I don't like pet classes. Enchanters are weak because the school is so sparse and the spells very brittle. Evokers are weak because they're so narrow, and silly because the 6th and 10th level abilities can basically never work because of the spells that exist. Necromancers are weak because they focus on one of the few objectively evil actions in the game, and I hate pet classes.
Beyond classes:
I don't like classes that rely heavily on short rests. Simply put, I dislike the short rest mechanic. Warlock, Fighter, and Monk all suffer in the games that I've played in because the majority of the party is almost never interested in a short rest after about level 4-5. We might get one a day, but that's it. It's long rests all the way.
I don't like the -5/+10 feats, nor Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master which grant bonus action attacks to stack with the -5/+10 action. Feats in general are poorly balanced, even if they are essentially necessary for late game advancement for Fighters.
I don't like Bless. It's an absurdly powerful spell at all levels of play. I'd rather it were just the old version: a flat +1 bonus to hit and fear saves for 6 rounds to all allies in 20'(?) without concentration. Yeah, that might be always good, but it's closer to 1st level in power. And you could bring back prayer at 3rd.
Stoneskin is so terrible. At the very least it should resist all damage, mundane and magical. It's a 5th level spell, and most of the dangerous opponents you face at 9th level just outright ignore it. Also, it doesn't need to last a flipping hour.
Six saving throws is dumb. Yes, it's "elegant," but it's really dumb. There, I said it. I completely buy the need for adding Str saves as well as having Dex and Con saves. I do not buy the need for Int, Wis, and Cha saves. Both Int and Cha saves feel very arbitrary and, IMX as both a player and a DM, feel like cheating when you ask for them. I say pick 1 mental save, and keep the 3 physical saves. Then move the Initiative bonus from Dex to Int. Cha doesn't need any more help.
Dex outpacing Str so much is pretty lame, as is how generally useless Int is overall. RAW all being smart gets you is minor resistance to Feeblemind and Maze, while Dex is just better than Str unless you go GWM.
The CR of creatures at high level really doesn't stand up at all. Yes, we get it: Feats, multiclassing, and magic items make the PCs more powerful than their levels suggest. That doesn't mean that the only things that should be challenging to PCs after level 15 at all are Dragons and Demon Lords. There should be more monsters available to smack down even PCs using all the optional rules.
Beyond that, it's not really overall class design that's a problem. Just little bits.
Fighter's Indomitable is genuinely the worst ability I've found in 5e in terms of power level and fun, and it's the only ability you get at two different levels.
Berzerker's Exhaustion mechanic is a bit too punitive to be usable very often, making the subclass much less valuable than the Totem warrior.
Valor and Lore Bard are a bit uneven in comparison to each other, but that's mainly because Valor increases diversity and Lore increases focus.
Druids get far too much durability out of Wild Shape. This is a general problem with the Polymorph rules still being pretty broken, however. 4th level spells significantly boosting damage and granting hundreds of temp hp with basically zero downside is just silly.
Life Cleric is much better than the other domains. Light is the only domain that really keeps up. The War cleric should be getting Extra Attack at 8th level; if a Bard can do it, so can a cleric. The clerical spell list is really boring at high level, however.
Paladins being able to Smite multiple times a turn allows a nova ability that's pretty excessive, especially with abilities that allow extra attacks. I've seen other tables limit the ability to once a round.
Five Elements Monk is terrible, as it heavily overloads the Ki pool and the spells are basically cast like you're a 1/2 caster so you're super behind. Wall of stone at level 17 is not impressive.
Sorcerer... Honestly I've never seen anybody play one for more than a session. The number of spells known is seriously restricting, and the spell list just amplifies that fact. Metamagic is a very interesting concept, but the rest of the spell list isn't well executed. Nobody has bothered because it doesn't look very good on paper once you start planning it out.
Warlock does not work well with multiclass rules. Devil's Sight is a silly ability. The "on hit" nature of several invocations and hex combined with the Eldritch Blast cantrip is also very silly. It makes the class do an extraordinary amount of damage, and having played one for a one-shot it feels genuinely like cheating. Beyond that, Pact Magic feels fairly weak due to the short rest nature of it. 2 spell slots until level 11 is dumb. All the Invocations that take spell slots and are limited to 1/day are horribly bad. Pact of the Blade feels very weak due to the loss of Eldritch Blast. Not that you can't do good things with a Bladelock, but man do you have to put effort into the class to do it, and really just love the flavor of the class overall.
Wizard has some uneven subclasses. Abjurer and Diviner are amazing. Illusionist and Transmuter are great. Conjurers are ok, but I don't like pet classes. Enchanters are weak because the school is so sparse and the spells very brittle. Evokers are weak because they're so narrow, and silly because the 6th and 10th level abilities can basically never work because of the spells that exist. Necromancers are weak because they focus on one of the few objectively evil actions in the game, and I hate pet classes.
Beyond classes:
I don't like classes that rely heavily on short rests. Simply put, I dislike the short rest mechanic. Warlock, Fighter, and Monk all suffer in the games that I've played in because the majority of the party is almost never interested in a short rest after about level 4-5. We might get one a day, but that's it. It's long rests all the way.
I don't like the -5/+10 feats, nor Crossbow Expert and Polearm Master which grant bonus action attacks to stack with the -5/+10 action. Feats in general are poorly balanced, even if they are essentially necessary for late game advancement for Fighters.
I don't like Bless. It's an absurdly powerful spell at all levels of play. I'd rather it were just the old version: a flat +1 bonus to hit and fear saves for 6 rounds to all allies in 20'(?) without concentration. Yeah, that might be always good, but it's closer to 1st level in power. And you could bring back prayer at 3rd.
Stoneskin is so terrible. At the very least it should resist all damage, mundane and magical. It's a 5th level spell, and most of the dangerous opponents you face at 9th level just outright ignore it. Also, it doesn't need to last a flipping hour.
Six saving throws is dumb. Yes, it's "elegant," but it's really dumb. There, I said it. I completely buy the need for adding Str saves as well as having Dex and Con saves. I do not buy the need for Int, Wis, and Cha saves. Both Int and Cha saves feel very arbitrary and, IMX as both a player and a DM, feel like cheating when you ask for them. I say pick 1 mental save, and keep the 3 physical saves. Then move the Initiative bonus from Dex to Int. Cha doesn't need any more help.
Dex outpacing Str so much is pretty lame, as is how generally useless Int is overall. RAW all being smart gets you is minor resistance to Feeblemind and Maze, while Dex is just better than Str unless you go GWM.
The CR of creatures at high level really doesn't stand up at all. Yes, we get it: Feats, multiclassing, and magic items make the PCs more powerful than their levels suggest. That doesn't mean that the only things that should be challenging to PCs after level 15 at all are Dragons and Demon Lords. There should be more monsters available to smack down even PCs using all the optional rules.
Barbarian- Fine, Neither name nor mechanics bother me.
Bard- Not my favorite class, but alright as is. I might change it to half caster, with more out-of-combat abilities to make up for it. Would be more interesting than yet another Combat-oriented half caster.
Cleric- Blow it up, much as I already have into a Warlock chassis.
Druid- Fine as is, though I will like my homebrew better.
Fighter- Needs a change or two, but I don't know what changes. As is, the class just doesn't speak to me.
Monk- I like it plenty, though I wouldn't mind less eastern flavor.
Paladin- Fine, though I might add more smugness.
Ranger- Also fine, Though I might eventually do a Warlock-style half-caster to see how that fits this.
Rogue- Fine
Sorcerer- Same problem as fighter, though in the opposite direction. Sorcerer Origins are so hyper-specialized that they can't have any other identity to them.
Warlock- My favorite. Despite that, I am currently working on rooting out the Patron system, and relegating all Patron abilities to Invocations. Pacts will be the big thing.
Wizard- Needs more to make the Schools different from each other. I have a lot of different ideas on how I might do this, like limiting a wizard mostly to spells from their own school, or adding a second tier of powers to all spells, which you can only access if you are a Wizard of that spells school.
So, my short list of classes to sacrifice; Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer, Wizard.
Bard- Not my favorite class, but alright as is. I might change it to half caster, with more out-of-combat abilities to make up for it. Would be more interesting than yet another Combat-oriented half caster.
Cleric- Blow it up, much as I already have into a Warlock chassis.
Druid- Fine as is, though I will like my homebrew better.
Fighter- Needs a change or two, but I don't know what changes. As is, the class just doesn't speak to me.
Monk- I like it plenty, though I wouldn't mind less eastern flavor.
Paladin- Fine, though I might add more smugness.
Ranger- Also fine, Though I might eventually do a Warlock-style half-caster to see how that fits this.
Rogue- Fine
Sorcerer- Same problem as fighter, though in the opposite direction. Sorcerer Origins are so hyper-specialized that they can't have any other identity to them.
Warlock- My favorite. Despite that, I am currently working on rooting out the Patron system, and relegating all Patron abilities to Invocations. Pacts will be the big thing.
Wizard- Needs more to make the Schools different from each other. I have a lot of different ideas on how I might do this, like limiting a wizard mostly to spells from their own school, or adding a second tier of powers to all spells, which you can only access if you are a Wizard of that spells school.
So, my short list of classes to sacrifice; Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer, Wizard.
I agree with most of your post, and still agree with some of these things. Here is my 2 cp.
I consider "Fighter" just as Anomalous as Ranger. I actually like this part of ranger, as it feels to me like it should be a little vague. just IMO though.
As for abilities that are useless, I hate Turn undead way more than Indomitable. So much class space, dedicated to forcing Cleric into an Anti-Undead bomb. one or two times a day. And only against undead, these abilities are wasted if you are fighting anything other than undead. Also, your other Channel divinity Options might be better than Turn Undead anyway, so it might not even be used in fights against undead...
I oppose you completely on the idea of short rests. I wish all classes had more stuff that recharged on a short rest, so that there was actually a reason for short rests to happen. Either that, or all classes recharge on short rests, and the only reason to long rest is to recharge hit dice. It would require some tweaking, but I am working on a few ideas. For example, Wizards could get 1-2 of each spell slot up to 5th level on a short rest, and 6-9th levels recharge on a long rest.
I agree on the six saving throws, and think it should be down to 4, with Dex and Str being interchangeable. Fireball? Dex or Str, Players choice. Necrotic/Paralysis? Con save. Something that requires will? Cha save. Wis and Int should not factor in, IMO. Wis is purely a perception skill at this point, and I think all Casters should be Cha or Int. Int should only be used for skills, not saving throws.
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Sacrosanct
Legend
Also, 5e is the equivalent to the Patriots, having won another Super Bowl and clearly in 1st place. So if you're making a sports analogy, not only does nothing need to be blown up, but you don't want to change hardly anything or you're gonna screw yourself 
L
lowkey13
Guest
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