Bo9S

[Mistwell]

Also make your crusader pay careful attention to his over the cap damage becus if he doesnt do something with it goes and unconscious it floods out and kills him.

If I am understanding your comment, I think you were using the delayed damage pool incorrectly. It always pours out and hits you for that damage (unless healed)...it's just delayed by one round, not capped.

 

[Asmor]

I think what he meant was you fill up your delayed damage pool, then take enough damage on top of that to knock you unconscious, and then on your initiative the pool drains and you die.

 

[Scribble]

I'm thinking the fighter's fine up to 10, without PHB II feats.

Once PHBII feats are added to the game, the fighter is a competent and valuable member of the party all the way up to 20.

I think really what it comes down to is a semi failure of feats... Let me explain...

Feats are/were a great idea. They added the ability to "customize" your character, and give him/her powers you couldn't have had in previous editions.

The problem is they never change. Once you pick a feat, that's it. It's with you all the way up until the end of the game. Fighters are/were awesome, because by using feats you can really customize what kinds of powers your character had. But once you did so, that's it. Once you decide you're going to be a Ranged Attack specialist, that's it. That's your schtick. Even if you decide to change, you're most likely just damning yourself to a fate of "semi optimal."

Which I think led to a lot of the Wizards and Clerics are Uber arguments...

A Wizard could swap out the spells he/she carried every day. His special attacks never really got boring, or unfit for whatever lay ahead. I think that aspect inspired things like retraining... They were looking for a way to redo the special abilities system. Maybe even with just 4e in mind...

Then came maneuvers. They're almost like feats, almost like magic. They sort of combine the best of both worlds. A customizable mutable feat system.

As it stands I don't think the classes in Bo9S are "better" then the fighter... They're just better at not getting boring.

 

[Arkhandus]

Agreed in part. A warblade is _much_ harder to hurt with magic than a barbarian and the barbarian disadvantages (limited rages, limited rage duration) don't show up here. A warblade, is IMO, a more powerful barbarian, at least at lower levels (3-5 for sure).

The martial adepts are certainly at their best during the first 6-8 levels. Clerics and druids tend to reach that point during their 7th-10th levels I think, fighter-types at the first 1-4 levels, and rogue-types at the upper levels maybe....

The MAD isn't all that bad. In a 32 point game you are likely trading a 16 dex for a 14 dex and 14 wis to get a +1 AC. Certainly helpful. But again, at around level 5 the swordsage gets scary. The 6d6 fireball if you hit with your weapon is really overpowering at this level. Our swordsage would do a tumble in then strike, greatly harming a lot of baddies. It left him vulnerable, but in better shape than a rogue who would only get +3d6 damage to one target at the same level.

Also, there are some crazy builds (halfling, Dex 20, Str8 with a spiked chain using DEX for attack and damage bonus) that were very powerful. Plus some of the stances are mighty powerful even starting at first. Not overwhelming, but powerful.

Oh, the MAD really is kinda bad, though. A majority of Swordsage strikes allow saving throws for half, partial, or no effect, and those maneuvers have their save DCs based on Strength or Wisdom modifier (even worse if the swordsage takes Martial Study for a few Devoted Spirit strikes that base their saves on the initiator's Charisma modifier).

Not only will a swordsage in a decent or low point-buy have very mediocre AC, attack bonuses, and hit points, but their maneuvers will all suffer from low-to-mediocre save DCs, meaning that half or most of the time, enemies will suffer little or no effect from the swordsage's strike maneuvers.

Death Mark is only a tiny fireball if your target is human-sized or smaller. Not likely to hit many opponents unless they're clustered together. And if you're fighting giants or whatnot, the amount of space they each take up will still mean you only hit a few of them with Death Mark. Still, it is definitely one of the stronger maneuvers.


Also: that halfling build requires 3rd level before it even starts to work decently, since they need 2 feats and only get 1 at 1st-level; and it makes Escape Artist ranks a priority, since it's really, really bad to be a melee guy who suffers -5 on all grapple checks, and has only a mediocre BAB (so effectively between -6 and -10 compared to a human fighter). Chuuls, giant snakes, and other beasties, not to mention giants and such, will crush the life out of him in no time flat.

Also, the halfling still does less damage than a human or half-orc with a greatsword (and still has a lower attack bonus than said swordsman, if the swordsman is a fighter or barbarian), and sucks at the Strength checks for trip attempts with his chain. Of course, he can spend two more feats, at 6th and 9th level, to eventually overcome some of that with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip; and then continue to be feat-starved....


Also, you mean +6d6 damage for a rogue of the same level; cuz Mr. Rogue will be flanking and sneak attacking with Two-Weapon Fighting and a pair of short swords; he'll be attacking twice for 4d6 damage each, so it'll come out to basically the same total (8d6 + 1-1/2 x Str mod) as a Swordsage using Death Mark with a greatsword.

A bit less accurate to be sure, but the Rogue will be doing it every round that he can, while the Swordsage will only be using Death Mark once per battle, maybe twice if he wastes a round on recovering it. Though at least the Swordsage will sometimes hit multiple opponents with the 6d6 fire damage (and of course, a Rogue's attacks can't be saved against; the Swordsage's Death Mark allows a Reflex save for half damage; which consequently Rogues and Swordsages and Monks can evade entirely with Evasion, though it takes longer for Swordsages to gain Evasion).

 

[Scribble]

Not only will a swordsage in a decent or low point-buy have very mediocre AC, attack bonuses, and hit points, but their maneuvers will all suffer from low-to-mediocre save DCs, meaning that half or most of the time, enemies will suffer little or no effect from the swordsage's strike maneuvers.

Depends how you build your dood.

I'm nowhere near the best at "power" building... But my guy has an AC of 34.

With the right feats his Attacks while admittedly not the best ever, aren't bad.

 

[brehobit]

The martial adepts are certainly at their best during the first 6-8 levels. Clerics and druids tend to reach that point during their 7th-10th levels I think, fighter-types at the first 1-4 levels, and rogue-types at the upper levels maybe....

Agreed on the casters and martial adepts. However, the martial adepts are still pretty powerful after that. And as I rarely play past 10th level, it makes them the most powerful of all classes in my games. At levels 7-10 the casters catch up. At level 6 the pure warrior types get a good bump, but still weaker than the MAs.

Oh, the MAD really is kinda bad, though. A majority of Swordsage strikes allow saving throws for half, partial, or no effect, and those maneuvers have their save DCs based on Strength or Wisdom modifier (even worse if the swordsage takes Martial Study for a few Devoted Spirit strikes that base their saves on the initiator's Charisma modifier).

Other than deathmark I've never seen a swordsage use an ability that had a save. I'm sure people do it, but I've not seen it over two longish running games with swordsages.

Death Mark is only a tiny fireball if your target is human-sized or smaller. Not likely to hit many opponents unless they're clustered together.

That opens one interesting question: Where is the fireball centered? For anything medium or small it's got to be one of the corners of the target. I rule it must be one the swordsage is adjacent to. But deathmark was generally quite useful if the swordsage would tumble in and pick his target well.

Also: that halfling build requires 3rd level before it even starts to work decently, since they need 2 feats and only get 1 at 1st-level; and it makes Escape Artist ranks a priority, since it's really, really bad to be a melee guy who suffers -5 on all grapple checks, and has only a mediocre BAB (so effectively between -6 and -10 compared to a human fighter). Chuuls, giant snakes, and other beasties, not to mention giants and such, will crush the life out of him in no time flat.

Also, the halfling still does less damage than a human or half-orc with a greatsword (and still has a lower attack bonus than said swordsman, if the swordsman is a fighter or barbarian), and sucks at the Strength checks for trip attempts with his chain. Of course, he can spend two more feats, at 6th and 9th level, to eventually overcome some of that with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip; and then continue to be feat-starved....

In our game he started at 3rd level and we allowed a flaw, so that worked. And the big advantage of this build is having a 20 dex that is used for attack, damage, and AC.

Here's a fun 32-point build (pick flaw as range weapon penalty)
3rd-level halfling swordsage.
32-point point-buy: STR 8, INT 10, WIS 14, DEX 20, CON 14, CHR 8
Feats: EWP: spiked chain, weapon finesse, shadow blade.
Maneuvers: Shadow blade technique, Burning blade, moment of perfect mind, counter Charge, stone bones, Fire riposte.
Stances: Island of blades, child of shadow
Equipment: small spiked chain (master work) +1 Mithral chain shirt. (2450 GP, so some left for other stuff).

AC is 10 +5(dex) +1(size) +5 (armor) +2 (wisdom) =AC 23. +9 attack (5 dex, 2 bab, 1 masterwork, 1 weapon focus) 2d3+5 damage with reach. And that ignores the 4d6 fire blast (immediate action) 1/fight and the almost always flanking (stance) Also:
+6 init
once/fight roll twice and take the better one for an attack.
once/fight +1d6+3 damage on an attack
once/fight have a +8 will save
once/fight have DR 5 for 1 round if you hit
once/fight negate a charge attack
4 maxed out skills

Sure, a raging half-orc barbarian does more damage most of the time 2d6+7 (14) vs. 2d3+5 (9). But at best the swordsage does 2d3+5 plus 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6+3 (burning blade) which is 4+5+14+6.5 or 29.5 damage vs. the barbarians 12. And the barbarian likely has an AC of 13-15 (when raging) vs 23. Lots more hps, but....

The grapple sucks, but any small warrior type has that problem, the STR just doesn't help enough to matter.

I agree a rogue will likely be attacking with two weapons, but he has to get into a flanking position, which rarely allows the 2 attacks on the same round as getting there....

 

[Zurai]

Sure, a raging half-orc barbarian does more damage most of the time 2d6+7 (14) vs. 2d3+5 (9). But at best the swordsage does 2d3+5 plus 4d6 (fire riposte) +1d6+3 (burning blade) which is 4+5+14+6.5 or 29.5 damage vs. the barbarians 12. And the barbarian likely has an AC of 13-15 (when raging) vs 23. Lots more hps, but....

You gave the swordsage feats and higher stats than the barb. The barb would actually have Power Attack and base Str of 20 (since you gave the halfling base dex of 20) and would be able to PA for 3 and still hit as often as the Swordsage. That gives 2d6+16 (average damage 23) at a +7 attack bonus while raging. 4d6+32 (average 46) on a crit. The swordsage does 2d3+1d6+3 (average 10.5) at a +7 attack bonus, 4d3+1d6+6 (average 13.5) on a crit (which happen half as often for the swordsage). Oh, and you don't deal weapon damage when you use Fire Riposte. You only deal the 4d6 fire damage.

The barb also can cast "Greatsword" on every single round of the fight. The Swordsage can initiage Burning Blade OR Fire Riposte (but not both) at best every other round.

 

[Arkhandus]

Problem. That halfling build is illegal. Weapon Finesse and Exotic Weapon Proficiency both require a +1 BAB, which the halfling does not have at 1st level.

Though I did forget earlier about needing EWP: Spiked Chain for that build. So actually, even more feat-starved, and must normally wait until 6th level to work properly. Regardless of UA's Flaws optional rule. The Flaw would allow them to pick up Combat Expertise at 1st though, so they could get Improved Trip at 9th instead of waiting till 12th.

 

[Arkhandus]

Yeah, I was going to comment on the terrible Barbarian stats used, but really, the Barbarian is limited to only one or two rages a day at that level, so it wouldn't always matter that he vastly understatted the Half-Orc Barbarian equivalent to that halfling swordsage. Instead his understatted version would be more like what the HOB does when he isn't Raging, compared to what the swordsage does when he's run out of offensive maneuvers.

 

[Nifft]

From the analysis I've seen, optimized Martial Adepts are stronger than vanilla Barbarians at levels 3-5 (only).

However, keep in mind that levels 5 and 6 are when Druids begin to own the world.

Cheers, -- N