D&D 5E Booming Blade seems a bit powerful

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

So "effect" only means damage, numbers, or exactly similar? That smells of special pleading.

As for getting it, no, because that totally flies in the face of what's written. It's says effect from the same spells, not only the same effects from the same spells.

Looks like you won't ever get it. Sad.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Looks like you won't ever get it. Sad.

Retreating to dismissive memes isn't really doing you any favors.

 

[green_destiny]

Well Booming Blade and Green Flame cantrips needs to compete Eldritch Blast and even do a bit more - with the risk of fighting enemies upclose.

This is obviously a fix to make Warlock's Pact of Blade more enticing. Without these new cantrips, Pact of Blade lacks so much in terms of damage, survivability and utility (compared with other pacts)).

 

[schnee]

For booming blade, the 'spell effect' is that the target is sheathed in a sonic bubble. That bubble has certain qualities regarding what happens if you willing move through the bubble, and ALL of those qualities ARE the 'spell effect', including what happens in the world to cause the bubble to burst (trigger) and the consequence of the bubble bursting (thunder damage, spell ends early).

Since the sonic bubble (and its qualities) ARE the 'spell effect', then you cannot have two of them on you at the same time re: Combining Magical Effects. Since you only have one bubble even if two spells are on you, there is no trigger for the second bubble to burst because there is no second bubble to burst!

However, when the first spell ends (for whatever reason) then there is no longer anything preventing the second spell from applying, and so as soon as the first bubble goes away then the second spell forms a new bubble, and the qualities of that new bubble become relevant.

Assuming this is all true, and IMO it's a completely valid interpretation of the rules, the challenge I can see with this is now in interpretation.

OK: Character sheathed in two or more Booms. First BOOM goes off. Second one is now ready to come on-line. What exactly happens?

1) SLIGHT DELAY: They moved, triggering the first one, and complete 5' of movement - the smallest intentional move increment in 5E - as the second sheath comes online. That's because the intent of the spell is to prevent them from disengaging, and they actually have to disengage to trigger it. So, they've moved 5', are no longer in melee range unless you close again, wrapped in the second sheath - and they have the choice to stop, or keep moving to trigger the second one. So, actually moving is key.

2) QUICKLY: It comes online almost immediately, so the character moved 1' at most - negligible - and are considered to be in the same square, and the character is aware of this and stops moving before the second one goes off. This is because the character choosing to move is the key.

3) INSTANTLY: The character starts moving, and the second sheath comes online instantaneously (there's no delay built in to the rules), so there's no reason to give a character the potential to stop moving. So, the character starts moving, and they happen one after another immediately, like a zipper made of those 'pulling string' fireworks. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Sucks to be you, character.

--

With your reading, all three of these are possible because of the weird nature of Booming Blade - it has a duration like a status effect, but it does damage, triggered by movement.

I can see #3 happening to an unintelligent foe quite often. Constructs, animals, stuff like that.

I'm kind of stuck here, because I'm sensitive to the kind of 'combinatorial cheese' that 3X had, where taking abilities that were meant to shore up the weakness of one class into another creates some crazy combos. So, maybe someone else can tell me - stacking BB effects that can all still go off one after another - how abusable is this?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Assuming this is all true, and IMO it's a completely valid interpretation of the rules, the challenge I can see with this is now in interpretation.

OK: Character sheathed in two or more Booms. First BOOM goes off. Second one is now ready to come on-line. What exactly happens?

1) SLIGHT DELAY: They moved, triggering the first one, and complete 5' of movement - the smallest intentional move increment in 5E - as the second sheath comes online. That's because the intent of the spell is to prevent them from disengaging, and they actually have to disengage to trigger it. So, they've moved 5', are no longer in melee range unless you close again, wrapped in the second sheath - and they have the choice to stop, or keep moving to trigger the second one. So, actually moving is key.

2) QUICKLY: It comes online almost immediately, so the character moved 1' at most - negligible - and are considered to be in the same square, and the character is aware of this and stops moving before the second one goes off. This is because the character choosing to move is the key.

3) INSTANTLY: The character starts moving, and the second sheath comes online instantaneously (there's no delay built in to the rules), so there's no reason to give a character the potential to stop moving. So, the character starts moving, and they happen one after another immediately, like a zipper made of those 'pulling string' fireworks. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Sucks to be you, character.

--

With your reading, all three of these are possible because of the weird nature of Booming Blade - it has a duration like a status effect, but it does damage, triggered by movement.

I can see #3 happening to an unintelligent foe quite often. Constructs, animals, stuff like that.

I'm kind of stuck here, because I'm sensitive to the kind of 'combinatorial cheese' that 3X had, where taking abilities that were meant to shore up the weakness of one class into another creates some crazy combos. So, maybe someone else can tell me - stacking BB effects that can all still go off one after another - how abusable is this?

Not very. You'd essentially have to have more than one character to do it, or a sorcerer with a death wish. And, honestly, while I disagree that Arial has the right of the interpretation, I don't see much of an abuse issue here -- it's niche, and if you have a party that wants to make this it's shtick, it's not that powerful. One target gets a few extra dice of damage when it moves if everyone hits it with their once per round cantrip (or all invest in warcaster for OA application) just doesn't sound like it'll break the game.

The issue I see is stacking of long term effects like bestow curse or even Hex in higher slots. That can take a BBEG or character to useless pretty quickly. Hexing DEX and STR really sucks if you then grapple, for instance. Two curse effect at the same time really suck (one sucks). I'd rather keep it clean and easy and follow the obvious reading of the rule rather than trying to find cracks to worm in exceptions -- one spell of the same name can affect a target at a time, although multiple castings might be applied. If the effect ends or does something on a trigger, all of the effects end or do something on that trigger, but only one is applied to the target.

 

[Arial Black]

Yes, all of those are part of the effect, but only the damage is applied to the target. Triggers and end of spell conditions are not applied to the target, and so continue to work normally. Only effects applied to the target are evaluated for the most potent.

You made that up. The rule does not say it only 'applies' to the target, or only 'applies' regarding damage.

The rule says, " Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap".

Only one 'spell effect' applies. 'Triggers/damages/ends early' are ALL part of that spell's 'spell effect'. Therefore, only one 'trigger', only one set of damage, and only one 'ends early' applies. There is nothing to support your idea that it only refers to the damage part, or that it only applies to parts that impact the target of the spell.

I hate being prophetic.

Heh. Since I wrote that no-one is disputing the part about 'most potent', some people have started doing that. Well done.

Incidentally, I agree with you that it's talking about slot level if it's a spell, or about 'highest numerical bonus' or 'most dice to roll' otherwise.

I disagree about the priority regarding two spells of the same potency. In that case, the original spell is the one that continues to apply, because the second spell has no power to stop the first from applying, only one spell can apply, and they cannot combine. A more potent spell could stop the first from applying simply because it must itself apply because it is the most potent and the first is not the most potent any longer so it ceases to apply. But otherwise the first continues to apply because nothing has happened that would prevent it from applying.

 

[jaelis]

In that case, the original spell is the one that continues to apply, because the second spell has no power to stop the first from applying, only one spell can apply, and they cannot combine.

Just to be clear, there's nothing in the RAW to suggest this. A DM could just as well decide that the most recently cast spell takes priority, because the first spell has no power to stop it from taking effect.

Not that I have a problem with it, just want to avoid confusion.

 

[Ovinomancer]

You made that up. The rule does not say it only 'applies' to the target, or only 'applies' regarding damage.

The rule says, " Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap".

Only one 'spell effect' applies. 'Triggers/damages/ends early' are ALL part of that spell's 'spell effect'. Therefore, only one 'trigger', only one set of damage, and only one 'ends early' applies. There is nothing to support your idea that it only refers to the damage part, or that it only applies to parts that impact the target of the spell.

Okay, then, to what does the spell effect apply? I had not thought that saying the spell effects apply to the target(s) of the spell would have been controversial.

Heh. Since I wrote that no-one is disputing the part about 'most potent', some people have started doing that. Well done.

Incidentally, I agree with you that it's talking about slot level if it's a spell, or about 'highest numerical bonus' or 'most dice to roll' otherwise.

I disagree about the priority regarding two spells of the same potency. In that case, the original spell is the one that continues to apply, because the second spell has no power to stop the first from applying, only one spell can apply, and they cannot combine. A more potent spell could stop the first from applying simply because it must itself apply because it is the most potent and the first is not the most potent any longer so it ceases to apply. But otherwise the first continues to apply because nothing has happened that would prevent it from applying.

Here's my reasoning -- Malbadwrong the Warlock has hexed the noble Shiningwhite the Paladin with a STR hex. A few moments later, Tardiless the Ever Late Warlock arrives to the fight on Malbadwrong's side and also hexes Shiningwhite, this time with a DEX hex. I like the idea that the second casting supercedes the original. This is especially true for any spell that has a lasting effect that doesn't require concentration, like Bestow Curse (5th level slot or higher) -- the most recent curse takes primacy.

 

[jaelis]

Okay, then, to what does the spell effect apply? I had not thought that saying the spell effects apply to the target(s) of the spell would have been controversial.

Arial would say that the entire spell description (everything but the stat block) is the effect. Based on the rules quote

Each spell description in chapter 11 begins with a block of information, including the spell’s name, level, school of magic, casting time, range, components, and duration. The rest of a spell entry describes the spell’s effect.

Personally I think he's taking that a bit too literally, but that's his ruling.

 

[Arial Black]

Arial would say that the entire spell description (everything but the stat block) is the effect. Based on the rules quote

Yes, unless it is something that literally cannot be part of the spell effect, like a clause that states that something must happen first in order for the spell to be cast. Cause must come before effect.

Personally I think he's taking that a bit too literally, but that's his ruling.

Well, taking the rule literally is a bit stronger than just 'my ruling', don't you think?

So, crunch, taking the rule literally, 'trigger/damage/ends early' are ALL part of the spell effect.

Of course, we want things to make sense in context. So, in context, the spell's 'effect' is a sonic bubble that sheaths the target, and that bubble has several properties: it triggers (bursts) if the target willing moves through it (or, strangely, moves with him if his movement was unwilling!), and when it bursts it is destroyed (ends early) and damages the target as the bubble bursts.

Since the 'sonic bubble' is the 'spell effect', then there can only be one bubble in play (applying). Since moving through the bubble bursts it, then a bubble that doesn't exist yet cannot be burst!

A bubble that doesn't exist yet cannot be burst (triggered), cannot be destroyed before it even begins to exist (ends early), or do damage by bursting (because it hasn't burst).