Boost Combat Expertise with Shields

[Scion]

Who ever said that the Expertising guy can only hit on a 20?

It was an exageration of course. Although it is possible vs people with decent ACs.

5th level fighter with combat expertise, full plate, tower shield, and fighting defensively.

AC 35 = 10 (base) +8 (full plate) +1 (dex of 12) +4 (tower shield) +2 (fighting defensively) +10 (combat expertise with special)

To hit -3 = +3 (str) -2 (tower shield) -4 (fighting defensively)

The damage is from a one handed weapon with +3 from str. Likely d8+3.

But the guy does have 9k to spend.. (-1500 from full plate, -30 from shield, -15 from longsword) and so could have more damage, but this guy is a turtle and maximizing defense.

+1 armor, +1 shield, +1 weapon = 4k, about 3k to use in misc gear.

AC 37
To hit -2
Damage d8+4

He is limited in movement and has massive penalties to a few different skills.

Anyone with an AC of 18 or higher this guy needs a 20 to hit and his average damage on a hit is 8.5.

18 AC isnt that tough to get. Chain shirt +1 and 16 dex does it and the extra 10' movement can help in other areas as well.

Let's say you are fighting a reasonable yet powerful brawn opponent--a Human Fighter with Weapon Focus, 16 Strength, and a +1 Two-Handed Weapon, total of +10 to hit. Well, then you only need 30 AC. Expertise for 4 with no Fighting Defensively?

Nice that you know exactly how much of what is needed. Did you use a skill check of some kind for this or is there some major metagaming going on?

Now of course you can go for more or less.. the less AC you go for then the more often you will hit, although your damage per hit is still low.

Note that with all of this the only change between the have and the have not (as in, the extra bonus) is somewhere between +0 and +5 and is completely dependent on how much of a penalty that you put in to begin with.

Going with your arguement it would seem that getting 5 ranks in tumble would also be overpowered.. as it does increase your AC as well.

For the guy before once he figures out that he cannot hit you except on a 20 then he can move on to some other tactics in order to take you down.. touch attacks (which are difficult, but much easier) such as tanglefoot bags or tripping or he could even do something like fight defensively as well and power attack for full..

You hit him rarely and for little, he hits you rarely but for a 'lot'.


Again, if the example you had before was the biggest offender then there really isnt much of a problem.. because it tends to be less bad at other levels anyway and it wasnt exactly incredibly impressive. It was only somewhat better than what could be done anyway.

Maybe there are worse offenders out there, if so they might make it a different matter.. but as of now? Doesnt seem that bad.

 

[Bront]

There is a class with good BAB and tumble as a class skill? Where are they located?

Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior. Dualist PrC CORE. Just off the top of my head.

 

[Scion]

Swashbuckler from Complete Warrior. Dualist PrC CORE. Just off the top of my head.

Swashbuckler definately works, although he is only proficient in light armor so needs a pretty high dex to get to the high AC's.. although the weapon finese ability would help in the to hit area.. which also further cuts into damage potential. Oh, and no shield prof.

Duelist not so much though, it takes 5 points of tumble to qualify..

But my question was vague, I had meant in order to create this mystical 5th level fighter type with +5 BAB at level 5 who also had 5 ranks in tumble and could use shields and, although not as important, full plate.

Swashbuckler works for the tumble but fails with armor and shields.

I guess they could have a 22 dex (18 +2 race +2 enhancement) and pick up shield proficiency and be the strongheart halfling so that they get the extra feat at first level for expertise.

So AC 36 = 10 (base) +4 (mithral chain shirt) +6 (dex) +2 (+1 shield) +3 (fighting defensively with bonus) +10 (expertise with bonus) +1 (size)
(also 1 point for dodge vs a single foe)

To hit +4 = +5 (bab) -5 (expertise) +6 (weapon finesse) +1 (masterwork weapon) +1 (size) -4 (fighting defensively)

Damage d4 (small light weapon) -1 (str) +int bonus (at least +1 because of needing a 13 int for expertise)

So that could definately work. Good AC, decent to hit, horrible damage.

Stat wise he spent 2 points on str, 10 points on dex, and 5 points on int.. in order to do decent damage he will want an 18 int which means 2 str, 10 dex, 10 int.. con would be nice for a tank as well, but then so would wis for a better will save.


Looks like a fun character to play really Very difficult to hit when they want to be although they simply are not dangerous as far as damage goes. But he will have enough skills to make the character interesting in other ways.

 

[Bront]

Swashbuckler definately works, although he is only proficient in light armor so needs a pretty high dex to get to the high AC's.. although the weapon finese ability would help in the to hit area.. which also further cuts into damage potential. Oh, and no shield prof.

Duelist not so much though, it takes 5 points of tumble to qualify..

But my question was vague, I had meant in order to create this mystical 5th level fighter type with +5 BAB at level 5 who also had 5 ranks in tumble and could use shields and, although not as important, full plate.

Swashbuckler works for the tumble but fails with armor and shields.

I guess they could have a 22 dex (18 +2 race +2 enhancement) and pick up shield proficiency and be the strongheart halfling so that they get the extra feat at first level for expertise.

So AC 36 = 10 (base) +4 (mithral chain shirt) +6 (dex) +2 (+1 shield) +3 (fighting defensively with bonus) +10 (expertise with bonus) +1 (size)
(also 1 point for dodge vs a single foe)

To hit +8 = +5 (bab) -5 (expertise) +6 (weapon finesse) +1 (masterwork weapon) +1 (size)

Damage d4 (small light weapon) -1 (str) +int bonus (at least +1 because of needing a 13 int for expertise)

So that could definately work. Good AC, decent to hit, horrible damage.

Stat wise he spent 2 points on str, 10 points on dex, and 5 points on int.. in order to do decent damage he will want an 18 int which means 2 str, 10 dex, 10 int.. con would be nice for a tank as well, but then so would wis for a better will save.


Looks like a fun character to play really Very difficult to hit when they want to be although they simply are not dangerous as far as damage goes. But he will have enough skills to make the character interesting in other ways.

Take Swashbuckler 1, then fighter 4, you can buy tumble up at class skill ranks, though it costs double, wear full armor, and you end up with an extra feat, though it's forced to be weapon finesse. Not sure how you RP justify that build, but it fits the concept of what you're trying to stack from a min/max persepctive. There are also feats that let you get an extra class skill or two, so there are ways to accomplish this.

Anyway, not debating or getting into the math, just pointing out that the classes exist.

 

[Scion]

Take Swashbuckler 1, then fighter 4, you can buy tumble up at class skill ranks, though it costs double, wear full armor, and you end up with an extra feat, though it's forced to be weapon finesse. Not sure how you RP justify that build, but it fits the concept of what you're trying to stack from a min/max persepctive. There are also feats that let you get an extra class skill or two, so there are ways to accomplish this.

Anyway, not debating or getting into the math, just pointing out that the classes exist.

Yeah, there are several different builds of course, I am just trying to see if there is one that is overpowering because of the bonus to expertise. Along with trying to find something that can actually do what was stated earlier.

Likely swashbuckler 3/fighter 2 would be even better Massive feats and insightful strike.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

So, you're replacing Improved Combat Expertise with a less powerful and flexible feat that only works with shields (light shield/buckler -2 to hit, +1 AC--a pretty bad deal; heavy shield -2 to hit; +2 to AC like Improved Combat Expertise but less flexible and with a very small cap; tower shield -2 to hit, +4 to AC--sounds like a good deal untily you realize that you're taking -2 to hit from the tower shield already so it's the same deal as the heavy shield with four points of Improved Combat Expertise--only less flexible and with a low cap).

Considering that I have only very very rarely seen Improved Combat Expertise be useful, that sounds like a universally bad deal for the shield user.

Overall, for once, I agree with Scion. The problem that you point out (unhittable at level 5) is not much of a problem.

My suggestion to at least tame this a little would be to replace Improved Combat Expertise in your game with a new feat called Canny Shield Defense, which, in line with Enkhidu's suggestion gives an unnamed bonus to your Shield Bonus (not Dodge) that is capped by 1 for bucklers and light shields, 2 for heavy, 4 for tower. Also, make the fighter take an additional -2 to hit to activate this. At least then they've paid for it with a relatively higher opportunity cost

 

[Rystil Arden]

You hit him rarely and for little, he hits you rarely but for a 'lot'.

It doesn't matter unless his damage is absurd--if he Power Attacks like that and fights defensively, then you can Combat Expertise for less and still be fine. Assuming a fellow who tries to max out damage wearing a +1 Full Plate and carrying a two-handed weapon (with 12 Dex of course), the Expertise guy could hit him on a 15, while the two-handed guy hits only on a 20. That means two-handed guy has to average 6x as much damage on a hit if he wants to compete, which is not going to happen unless something is seriously wrong (6d8+18 averages to 45 damage on a successful non-critical hit).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Considering that I have only very very rarely seen Improved Combat Expertise be useful, that sounds like a universally bad deal for the shield user.

Have you seen Improved Combat Expertise being used by someone who has made a build that focuses on it? I have--and it can be extraordinarily devastating. If you don't have a PC doing it right now, you can try it as a GM--Particularly, try giving it to dragons.

So, you're replacing Improved Combat Expertise with a less powerful and flexible feat that only works with shields (light shield/buckler -2 to hit, +1 AC--a pretty bad deal; heavy shield -2 to hit; +2 to AC like Improved Combat Expertise but less flexible and with a very small cap; tower shield -2 to hit, +4 to AC--sounds like a good deal untily you realize that you're taking -2 to hit from the tower shield already so it's the same deal as the heavy shield with four points of Improved Combat Expertise--only less flexible and with a low cap).

You have analysed my proposal completely accurately. However, what you see as faults, I see as features.

 

[Scion]

It doesn't matter unless his damage is absurd--if he Power Attacks like that and fights defensively, then you can Combat Expertise for less and still be fine. Assuming a fellow who tries to max out damage wearing a +1 Full Plate and carrying a two-handed weapon (with 12 Dex of course), the Expertise guy could hit him on a 15, while the two-handed guy hits only on a 20. That means two-handed guy has to average 6x as much damage on a hit if he wants to compete, which is not going to happen unless something is seriously wrong (6d8+18 averages to 45 damage on a successful non-critical hit).

I still find it interesting that your characters know the exact to hits so as to perfectly judge their defensive stance.

Power attack has some 'perfect numbers' to run as well for maximum bonus to damage, but it isnt the easiest thing in the world to guess even then.

If the fighter recognizes a tough to hit opponent, and apparently could guess the exact ac of the opponent, then he will know what to do to maximise the damage.

If the other fighter recoginzes the to hit then he can adjust.

However, both can adjust to circumstances. If one is being hard to hit to a high degree then the other has choices that he can make, he isnt limited to doing the exact same thing every round.

This bounces back and forth depending on the choices that people make and what feats they have to use. The offensive character has much higher damage and an extra feat to play with, the defensive guy can make it very difficult to attack himself with

Having a high AC is very nice indeed, but this guy pays for it through feats and lesser damage and penalties to attack from multiple sources along with needing an extra stat.

There are enough ways around it though that it shouldnt be a problem much of the time, unless all of the opponents are fairly unintelligent with no choices and only make physical attacks that arent beyond what normal charactes could make.. oh, and doesnt grapple.

Especially since we are talking about a difference between +0 and +5 from what it was anyway.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Especially since we are talking about a difference between +0 and +5 from what it was anyway.

The problem is that a free +5 bonus (and the new bonus is free assuming you were already going to pay for the Combat Expertise before) to all attacks is out of line--Pretend that this benefit required a second feat and then compare that to Dodge.

The PC to which I alluded in my reply to Elder Basilisk who abused Improved Combat Expertise (which is less dangerous than this proposal because it requires a new feat, more of a sacrifice to hit, and a higher BAB to do it) was crazy--he knew exactly what he was doing, and he could counter any tactics thrown against him by other martial opponents. Grapple, for example, didn't work because even his touch AC was unhittable thanks to ICE, and if they somehow managed to lay a finger on him, he had high Escape Artist, which suffers no penalty from ICEing.