Boosting Grapple Checks For Garroting

[Little_Buddha]

I'm just in the process of designing a second-level Human Rogue. Although I realised before I started that it was insane, I'm infatuated with the idea of a thief with the garrote as his signature weapon. I've got Song & Silence, with its two pages of garrote attack rules. Herein lies the problem, though.

It's an exotic weapon, so having the garrote as a signature weapon is realistically going to cost you a feat. That means you really want it to do something. Here's what you have to go through to garrote someone:

* Not get hit by the AoO invoked by attacking with a garrote.
* Hit the target with a modified melee touch attack.
* Continuously win opposed grapple checks.

Parts one and two are relatively simple. You can deny your target that AoO, or draw an AoO from him just prior to garroting him, or just brave the strike. The modified melee touch attack isn't that hard - only natural armour, full plate and gorgets grant Armour bonuses against it.

But winning lots of opposed grapple checks? As a rogue?

Base Attack Bonus + Strength Modifier + Size Modifier

How on earth is a rogue going to win more than a couple of these checks in a row? And just *one* failure dooms the garrote attempt! You're extremely unlikely to even START a garrote against a warrior-type of equal level. So here's my quandry:

How can a single-class Rogue boost his grapple check?

As far as I know, there isn't a way that doesn't involve distinctly non-Rogue elements (somehow being magically enlarged, multiclassing into warrior classes to get a decent BAB or increasing Strength magically). And if you're doing the latter two, you're far better off just attacking your victim!

Any thoughts?

 

[Moto Jojo]

I've thought a bit about this myself, but not enough to have any real solutions. It seems to me that if you're going to use a garrote, make it a locking garrote if at all possible. I really like the idea of locking a garrote around a guy's neck, then stepping back and stabbing at him as he tries to remove it. Even if the roll you lock it on isn't very good, it still effectively prevents your enemy from doing anything else while he deals with it.

 

[Little_Buddha]

Oh, you'd use a locking garrote all the time! But you still have to win repeated opposed grapple checks. You need to win at least one just to START strangling your opponent. Then each round thereafter you're looking at multiple grapple checks each round (however many attacks your victim has *plus* one from the grapple itself). Your victim only has to win one to free him- or her- self.

I'm pretty sure there's no way (I suppose you could take Weapon Focus: Grapple to get a +1 on grapple checks, but it isn't exactly a big lead...)

You definitely need a distinct advantage to have any real chance of strangling someone to death (since you need to make many checks, you'd really want a +10 lead or so). You're likely to have a significant disadvantage, though. Sure, you can strangle very low-level demihumans. But then you could just kill them with a longsword

 

[Moto Jojo]

I think maybe you've missed the locking garrote text, or maybe I'm misunderstanding it myself. Check out page 52 under the locking garrote description and let's decide whether I'm on crack or not.

By my reading, once the locking garrote is locked, they can't remove it with a normal opposed grapple check. Each round on your turn, they make an opposed check to avoid taking damage, but on their turn, the only option for removing it is a difficult Disable Device check at DC 25 (or DC 10 if you happen to have Exotic Weapon Proficiency: locking garrote). Granted, you still need to win the initial opposed check, and I don't have any good suggestions for that. If you can win that first check, though, your enemy is pretty well screwed.

 

[Little_Buddha]

<rereads text>

Quite right! I was misreading it. I took away the phrase "the victim continues to make grapple checks... until freed or unconscious" - which means, of course, that the victim can win an opposed check each round in order to avoid damage. I remembered it as being otherwise similar to normal grappling - the only advantage being that you can act independently rather than maintaining the hold.

I still can't see it being worth an exotic weapon proficiency feat, though, even with this added in. It's great if it works, but you're basing your success on a d20 roll with dubious odds (leaving aside the attack roll).

Pity True Sight only boosts the attack roll...

 

[zorlag]

zorlag

You remember that when someone is grappled, they are denied their dex bonus against other attackers. Now locking garotte grapples for you, so you are free to sneak attack the target at the same time as they are strangled by a garotte, which is quite difficult to remove!

Now I'm thinking of not allowing locking garotte in my games until I can think of reasonable chance for unskilled user to remove the garotte...

Z.

 

[Little_Buddha]

Technically they can be cut - effective AC works out at 25 (small item [AC 11] + cover bonus [AC 21] + circumstance penalty [AC 25]). Plus with a hardness of seven and four hitpoints you're really looking to deal 11 slashing damage in one hit. Plus you're grappled so you can only use Small or Tiny slashing weapons.

So... yeah. Any very strong creature can probably just cut it off, but anyone weak is pretty much screwed.

It's just that initial grapple check which is dicey, really. I guess in the end I'll probably just rely on luck (which is to say, given my record, I'll just fail spectacularly). I'm not sure I'll expend a feat on getting the exotic weapon proficiency required, though. From a rules perspective it's nuts not to eat the -4 penalty on the melee touch attack.