Boss Fights: Fairly Countering Novas

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The last session I ran had a fairly unsatisfying boss battle. The PCs were 7th-level and looking for a "hunting demon" they knew little about. The PCs were determined to capture it and use it to defend their tower. They passed a skill challenge and therefore got a surprise round on it.

It was a Huge tiger (flavor-texted as being a former animal companion) and while it was a solo I wasn't expecting this to be a particularly difficult fight. (By 7th-level, a single at-level solo isn't usually much of a challenge. The creature also wasn't intelligent.) It was a skirmisher, and dealt bonus damage on a charge, had bonuses to defenses against opportunity attacks, and wasn't restricted to free actions after a charge.

The PCs were:
Elven pacifist cleric
Dragonborn fire elementalist sorcerer
Deva swordmage
Half-elf invoker

The tiger had an ability stolen from the death knight, slightly modified:

Implacable

Trigger: The death knight becomes marked, slowed, immobilized, dazed, or stunned by an effect.

Effect (Opportunity Action): The death knight makes a saving throw to end the triggering effect, even if the effect would not normally end on a save.

At least one player complained that it had an 80% "wash effect off" rate and fighting it was like fighting a Final Fantasy boss, but not in a good way. (I don't think it's common now, but FF monsters were notorious for being outright immune to Sleep and other such effects.)

I decided the tiger would try to "eat" anyone who wasn't wearing much armor, especially if they were big and muscular. The first target was the sorcerer.

In round one (after the surprise) the cleric used a power that inflicted -4 to hit on the solo. It didn't spend an AP and accomplished little. It did manage to grab the sorcerer, but the invoker teleported him out of his grip. I forget how this happened, but the invoker ended up prone. (I think he was prone when he teleported people, including himself, away from the tiger.)

By round two the tiger was already bloodied. It just wanted to grab someone and run off with them, chow down and have an extended rest. The cleric hit it with a power that inflicted -3 to hit for a turn and also dazed it. It washed off the daze though. It really should have attacked the sorcerer again, but the bite-sized morsel of an invoker was lying prone and the tiger just couldn't resist. (Also, -3 to hit cancels out combat advantage against a prone target and the bonus from charging.)

The tiger bit the invoker and dragged his corpse away. Yes, his corpse as the tiger outright killed the PC. It didn't get far, having not many hit points left, and even its high speed and bonuses against opportunity attacks didn't help it get away. It didn't even get to spend its second AP before dying.

In hindsight, I would have given its Implacable ability more options (such as countering attack penalties)... but also either removed the ability or at least inflicted a -5 penalty to the saving throw when the tiger is bloodied.

In other words, I'm thinking of moving alpha strikes into later in the combat. My ideal boss monster would have a lot of anti-control options and maybe high defenses, but only until it's bloodied. When bloodied, it would lose these options but would also gain bonuses to damage and maybe to hit. At this point the PCs should use heavy control on it, spend AP to rack up damage since they won't be missing much, and so forth.

In the meantime some of the "boss monsters" in my last campaign were more successful, even if they weren't deliberately designed with the "anti alpha strike" in mind. The last battle, for instance, featured a solo, four artillery pieces that healed her every turn (kind of like interactive regeneration) and a soldier who turned out to be useless. The PCs learned of the healing in the first round and spent the next few rounds killing the highly dangerous artillery pieces (which actually killed a PC) and at the end, very low on healing, were nearly killed by the solo's aura despite dealing more than double her damage. (The solo had two actions, and with two saving throws at +5 per PC turn, made it harder to control her. Although this meant little control was used against her at all, rather than just late in the battle.)

Other options include something I found at the Sly Flourish site, specifically interactive defense bonuses, which I've used twice (only once successfully though). Magical ritual "traps" give the boss a defense boost, but the PCs can take them down, which means they're not focus firing the boss. In hindsight, I wouldn't make taking these down a skill challenge, as the PCs didn't want to "waste" rounds not doing damage. Instead, I'd probably use something similar to those artillery pieces, except maybe with defense boosts instead of regeneration, since boosting defenses would reduce incoming control as well. As the fight progresses, the PCs strip off these buffs by smashing totems, then go to town dropping novas on the boss. Of course this gives the boss a turn or two of fairly unrestricted attacks. This is something I could have used for the solo tiger mentioned in the example; the druid could have left a "legacy" of magic "traps" or totems that enhance the tiger's defenses, and the PCs could have smashed these.

Indeed, such a setup could be used with a regular boss monster, as the totems (or what not) might be responsible for abilities such as "Implacable", eliminating the need to modify the boss monster.

Yet another option is to steal the escalation die idea from 13th Age. The monster might start with higher than normal defenses, but these drop over the course of the fight. Again, PCs might wait until its easier to hit before they inflict control or damage novas on it. Also, the monster might get an escalating attack bonus, so at the time it's better to hit it with heavy control, the PCs also need to hit it with heavy control. (-4 to hit isn't too bad if the monster is getting +2 to hit, and weaken isn't so bad if it's getting lots of bonus damage while bloodied anyway.)

An odd side effect is figuring out when a solo should use its APs. Should it do so early on, before the heavy control hits, or is it better to save them for when it's getting bonuses to hit and damage? (Obviously the totems would be destroyed fast, so unless the boss is getting a huge benefit for being bloodied on its own, the monster should spend its AP right away.)

All of these ideas would require communication with the players, because otherwise they would probably continue to use start-of-combat alpha strikes because "that's the best strategy" and complain that their control is just washing off the monster's back.

But these are just my ideas (mostly copied from other places). I call upon the community to tell me what they would do instead, or what has worked for them before. While it's a 4e D&D thread, cool ideas from other editions and games are also welcome.

 

[RangerWickett]

All the status effects end up being a flaw of the system. It's too easy to impose conditions, and there's not enough gradations.

When I design solos I use the three-stage method. After every 33% of HP loss, the enemy changes tactics, wipes all negative conditions, and gets some no-action retaliation to make sure the combat stays nicely narrative. And yes, most have some sort of condition shield. I just made an uber-ghost who had other ghosts bonded to him. He got bonus actions for each ghost, and whenever he would suffer a condition he could just put one of his ghosts out of commission until he made the save. So you can limit how many actions he gets, but it's hard to shut him down completely.

 

[Scrivener of Doom]

I rather like the way the MV dragons are designed as a model for effective solos.

Rather than two turns, per se, they have an extra attack that takes place at their initiative +10. If they cannot make that attack due to a status effect, they lose the bonus attack and the status effect ends. In the case of the tiger, maybe a pouncing attack - jump its speed, ignore opportunity attacks, claw, target falls prone - would be perfect for such an extra action.

Anyway, check them out and see what you think.

There's also a solo thread here that has some great advice: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?350797-The-4e-Solo-Thread&prefixid=wotc

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The last session I ran had a fairly unsatisfying boss battle. The PCs were 7th-level and looking for a "hunting demon" they knew little about. The PCs were determined to capture it and use it to defend their tower. They passed a skill challenge and therefore got a surprise round on it.

It was a Huge tiger (flavor-texted as being a former animal companion) and while it was a solo I wasn't expecting this to be a particularly difficult fight. (By 7th-level, a single at-level solo isn't usually much of a challenge. The creature also wasn't intelligent.) It was a skirmisher, and dealt bonus damage on a charge, had bonuses to defenses against opportunity attacks, and wasn't restricted to free actions after a charge.

The PCs were:
Elven pacifist cleric
Dragonborn fire elementalist sorcerer
Deva swordmage
Half-elf invoker

The tiger had an ability stolen from the death knight, slightly modified:



At least one player complained that it had an 80% "wash effect off" rate and fighting it was like fighting a Final Fantasy boss, but not in a good way. (I don't think it's common now, but FF monsters were notorious for being outright immune to Sleep and other such effects.)

I decided the tiger would try to "eat" anyone who wasn't wearing much armor, especially if they were big and muscular. The first target was the sorcerer.

In round one (after the surprise) the cleric used a power that inflicted -4 to hit on the solo. It didn't spend an AP and accomplished little. It did manage to grab the sorcerer, but the invoker teleported him out of his grip. I forget how this happened, but the invoker ended up prone. (I think he was prone when he teleported people, including himself, away from the tiger.)

By round two the tiger was already bloodied. It just wanted to grab someone and run off with them, chow down and have an extended rest. The cleric hit it with a power that inflicted -3 to hit for a turn and also dazed it. It washed off the daze though. It really should have attacked the sorcerer again, but the bite-sized morsel of an invoker was lying prone and the tiger just couldn't resist. (Also, -3 to hit cancels out combat advantage against a prone target and the bonus from charging.)

The tiger bit the invoker and dragged his corpse away. Yes, his corpse as the tiger outright killed the PC. It didn't get far, having not many hit points left, and even its high speed and bonuses against opportunity attacks didn't help it get away. It didn't even get to spend its second AP before dying.

In hindsight, I would have given its Implacable ability more options (such as countering attack penalties)... but also either removed the ability or at least inflicted a -5 penalty to the saving throw when the tiger is bloodied.

In other words, I'm thinking of moving alpha strikes into later in the combat. My ideal boss monster would have a lot of anti-control options and maybe high defenses, but only until it's bloodied. When bloodied, it would lose these options but would also gain bonuses to damage and maybe to hit. At this point the PCs should use heavy control on it, spend AP to rack up damage since they won't be missing much, and so forth.

In the meantime some of the "boss monsters" in my last campaign were more successful, even if they weren't deliberately designed with the "anti alpha strike" in mind. The last battle, for instance, featured a solo, four artillery pieces that healed her every turn (kind of like interactive regeneration) and a soldier who turned out to be useless. The PCs learned of the healing in the first round and spent the next few rounds killing the highly dangerous artillery pieces (which actually killed a PC) and at the end, very low on healing, were nearly killed by the solo's aura despite dealing more than double her damage. (The solo had two actions, and with two saving throws at +5 per PC turn, made it harder to control her. Although this meant little control was used against her at all, rather than just late in the battle.)

Other options include something I found at the Sly Flourish site, specifically interactive defense bonuses, which I've used twice (only once successfully though). Magical ritual "traps" give the boss a defense boost, but the PCs can take them down, which means they're not focus firing the boss. In hindsight, I wouldn't make taking these down a skill challenge, as the PCs didn't want to "waste" rounds not doing damage. Instead, I'd probably use something similar to those artillery pieces, except maybe with defense boosts instead of regeneration, since boosting defenses would reduce incoming control as well. As the fight progresses, the PCs strip off these buffs by smashing totems, then go to town dropping novas on the boss. Of course this gives the boss a turn or two of fairly unrestricted attacks. This is something I could have used for the solo tiger mentioned in the example; the druid could have left a "legacy" of magic "traps" or totems that enhance the tiger's defenses, and the PCs could have smashed these.

Indeed, such a setup could be used with a regular boss monster, as the totems (or what not) might be responsible for abilities such as "Implacable", eliminating the need to modify the boss monster.

Yet another option is to steal the escalation die idea from 13th Age. The monster might start with higher than normal defenses, but these drop over the course of the fight. Again, PCs might wait until its easier to hit before they inflict control or damage novas on it. Also, the monster might get an escalating attack bonus, so at the time it's better to hit it with heavy control, the PCs also need to hit it with heavy control. (-4 to hit isn't too bad if the monster is getting +2 to hit, and weaken isn't so bad if it's getting lots of bonus damage while bloodied anyway.)

An odd side effect is figuring out when a solo should use its APs. Should it do so early on, before the heavy control hits, or is it better to save them for when it's getting bonuses to hit and damage? (Obviously the totems would be destroyed fast, so unless the boss is getting a huge benefit for being bloodied on its own, the monster should spend its AP right away.)

All of these ideas would require communication with the players, because otherwise they would probably continue to use start-of-combat alpha strikes because "that's the best strategy" and complain that their control is just washing off the monster's back.

But these are just my ideas (mostly copied from other places). I call upon the community to tell me what they would do instead, or what has worked for them before. While it's a 4e D&D thread, cool ideas from other editions and games are also welcome.

I tend to try to use the environment and plot to create a more dynamic encounter where the best strategy may evolve over time. For instance a construct might start out with high defenses, but if the PCs destroy the wards on its surface (IE make some knowledge checks and attacks that don't do direct damage) it weakens the things defenses. Then perhaps the thing bursts into flame once it is bloodied and gets an aura and higher damage output, and maybe a ranged attack or some sort of a reaction to enemy ranged attacks. This is sort of what you were talking about too.

Other options would be for instance a creature that begins to collapse the mine gallery where the fight is happening. As the battlefield gets more and more unstable rocks begin to fall, and the creature begins flailing about or using some different sort of tactics.

You could use 'multi-part' bosses where one piece might be a 'shield' that can be destroyed separately from the main part of the boss.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

I can't stand alpha strikes vs. solos and spent a lot of my 4E run actively fighting against them. I've used:

1. Initial positioning. Starting the solo in partial or total concealment, or behind cover, that prevents optimal targeting and focus fire and forces movement. I rarely start an encounter with the PCs enter a room and facing down a solo standing right in front of them.

2. Blockers. These are generally hordes of minions. In encounter design they should be engaged first by the party, with the solo not yet on the scene or a valid target. Their purpose is to distract the party from focusing on the solo and to punish them if ignored. I started giving minions significant powers and traits that activated on combat advantage, activated on OAs, dealt damage or debuffs on death, or compounded the more minions engaged a PC. As a DM, minions are your controllers. They're there to mess with the party's battleplans. It doesn't matter if the PCs are dropping them by the score. It means they're drawing attacks and the PCs are losing out on efficient action economy. [I diverge from the 4E guidelines in that I don't give out XP for minion-slaying and generally use 6/standard in Heroic and 10/standard in Paragon. I'd use the standard minion guidelines if the party is lacking serious area-effect skills. Also, solos that summon a minion horde on bloodied are fun.

3. Force Fields. This is any sort of barrier placed on a solo to soak up damage at the beginning of a combat. It might be a magic aura or some sort of bodyguard monster. Perhaps a magic statue must be destroyed before the solo can be targeted maybe it just lasts for 1-3 rounds. Perhaps a skill challenge might do it or just a ton of attacks or attacks of a certain damage type. The barrier can block all damage or effect, or it might block half the damage or it might convert damage to another effect (daze or stun, depending on the damage threshold). The presence of Force Fields should be obvious, though careless or impatient players might miss their significance. If a party ignores the barrier and uses all of their best powers to no effect at the start of the combat, you're looking at a long, boring slog for the remainder of the fight. The point is to make the fight fun and dramatic, not screw the players over.

4. Reverse Alpha Strikes. Give the solo a potent one-off attack at the start of the combat. I have no qualms about having the solo use this at the very start of round 1, regardless of initiative. Ideally, this should be a large area-effect power that does some damage but, more importantly, has significant forced movement or debuffs. Once again, the point is to disrupt the party battleplan and put them on the defensive for a round or two. In the Tiger Solo Fight, a pounce from hiding that scatters and knocks down party members would be perfect. A fun one is having a huge solo smash a cave wall, causing boulders to fall down (transforming the battlefield and forcing reactions from the PCs).

5. Solo Defenses and Debuff Removal. It sounds like you already have this one down. Solos NEED this sort of stuff. Even something as simply as having them pay 10HP per Tier to remove conditions (my favorite ad hoc solution) works wonders.

6. Escalation Solo Mechanic. My riff on the 13th Age escalation die was to give solo +2 to AC/Def at the start of a combat. This becomes +2 to Attacks when bloodied. Thus, the solo is better defended at the start and more aggressive towards the back half. You can offset the bonuses with appropriate penalties if desired. Either way, this should be accompanied with DM hints to key the players into what's happening.

7. Skill Challenges in combat. Ideally, this is another thing the PCs need to focus on and a tax on their action economy. This can be an escalating threat that needs to be dealt with or something that weakens or even defeats the solo. I often dispense with the 3 or X failure count on these challenges, especially if it's a standard action to make a check. In the sense of "defeating a solo" the PCs might be able to topple the ruinous fortress, burying the dragon in it's own lair. On a successful check, the PC can roll some good p42 damage and add it to a tally. With 3 or 5 successes, the PCs have brought the structure down and get to inflict the entire tally to the dragon. Optionally, you can have the roll for all the damage at once, but you get the idea. Maybe the party can attempt while hiding and running from the dragon (gaining cover and concealment against its attacks), thus suffering less damage and making it an attractive option. I'd just caution against over-developing these challenges and, as a result, feel obligated to push the players to use them.

 

[Ryujin]

I frequently used a similar mechanic to the saving throw one that you mentioned but to keep it somewhat fair it would cost the Solo hit points to use it. This balanced against the removal of the effect by not particularly lengthening the overall fight. Given that the players had a Pacifist Cleric in the bunch I had to do something about all of the status effects and full hit healing on a single surge, or there would have been absolutely no challenge.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

One of the most successful solos I ever had was "Old 100 Foot", a sort of Cthulhuoid beast that would leave strange trails in the woods. It could become partly insubstantial. Otherwise it was just a Gargantuan (4x4) brute. It would unleash a couple of nasty tentacle thumps with a reach 2 that tossed the target from 3-6 squares, dazed them, and knocked them prone. It could also do a slightly milder version as a reaction to a melee attack. It could also do an overrun type move, so it would avoid just being totally pinned down. Every so often it would also spit out a small minion demon that was fairly annoying (I forget the exact details, I think it was something from MM2).

This thing was great. It wasn't a super long fight, but the PCs were quite surprised to find their basic "mob it" didn't work so well as the fighter, then the cleric, were hurled into the woods and took a couple rounds to get back into the fight, and the rogue ended up unconscious UNDER the thing. The wizard was being harassed by minions, and overall it was just TOUGH for them to pin the thing down and stomp it. At the end they did finally drop a couple conditions on the beast, but the fight was short, sweet, and tense.

 

[Quickleaf]

I have some insights about the tiger solo example...

At least one player complained that it had an 80% "wash effect off" rate and fighting it was like fighting a Final Fantasy boss, but not in a good way. (I don't think it's common now, but FF monsters were notorious for being outright immune to Sleep and other such effects.)

I think there are 2 issues here...the first is that "a tiger" rarely carries the same gravitas as, say, a dragon or lich, where such an ability would be more easily swallowed. The other issue is that outright immunity is contrary to 4e design conceits because it's not fun. The problem with Implaccable is that it doesn't distinguish between conditions of varying severity (e.g. dazed vs stunned); downgrading dazed to just combat advantage or stunned to dazed would seem more fair and true to concept. Alternately, more thematically appropriate abilities triggered if you daze/stun/knock prone the tiger could be interesting.

A lot of this has to do with expectations. Just what is a big tiger capable of, in the minds of the players? A lot of this has to do with how the DM leads in to the fight and sets up the story. For example, I have run some lurkers as "Schroedinger's Monsters" in the sense that I would include/exclude a few of their abilities based on the PCs investigation pre-combat.

I decided the tiger would try to "eat" anyone who wasn't wearing much armor, especially if they were big and muscular. The first target was the sorcerer.

A sensible choice. I wonder if the tiger would have been better designed as a lurker.

In round one (after the surprise) the cleric used a power that inflicted -4 to hit on the solo. It didn't spend an AP and accomplished little. It did manage to grab the sorcerer, but the invoker teleported him out of his grip. I forget how this happened, but the invoker ended up prone. (I think he was prone when he teleported people, including himself, away from the tiger.)

By round two the tiger was already bloodied. It just wanted to grab someone and run off with them, chow down and have an extended rest. The cleric hit it with a power that inflicted -3 to hit for a turn and also dazed it. It washed off the daze though. It really should have attacked the sorcerer again, but the bite-sized morsel of an invoker was lying prone and the tiger just couldn't resist. (Also, -3 to hit cancels out combat advantage against a prone target and the bonus from charging.)

I've seen attack penalty spamming shut down solo fight to the tune of -9 for one round, even bearing in mind that power attack penalties don't stack! A party using that kind of control early can shut down a monster very effectively...because few solo monsters are designed to handle it. For example, your tiger should be designed with an action that gives it something meaningful to do when it's odds of hitting are pisspoor...this could b a pounce with automatic knock down and high defense bonuses to opportunity attacks, or an astronomical Stealth bonus in a round it doesn't attack.

The tiger bit the invoker and dragged his corpse away. Yes, his corpse as the tiger outright killed the PC. It didn't get far, having not many hit points left, and even its high speed and bonuses against opportunity attacks didn't help it get away. It didn't even get to spend its second AP before dying.

Not all alpha strikes are equal. I'm not entirely clear from what you shared...what were the abilities the PCs brought to bear that made it un-challenging/un-fun? Was it copious damage and imposed attack penalties?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Not all alpha strikes are equal. I'm not entirely clear from what you shared...what were the abilities the PCs brought to bear that made it un-challenging/un-fun? Was it copious damage and imposed attack penalties?

Pretty much the penalty to hit. I wanted a way to discourage that, but only during the alpha strike period, not during the whole fight.

That's why I proposed having the anti-control ability be a lot weaker or non-existent when the monster is bloodied, but also have anti-control work against imposed attack penalties.

The damage wasn't ridiculous. It died in two round, but I'm more annoyed that it accomplished little in round one than that it died in two rounds. It was a single solo, so it's not like it was going to last long.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=1165](Psi)SeveredHead[/MENTION]
Yeah, imposing attack penalties is very effective control (perhaps *too* effective) in 4e because nearly no monsters have a means to counter it. And I would expect your players to keep using that strategy early on, which means...

You'll need to think up a unique way for each solo you use against this party to momentarily shut down or at least complicate attack penalties.

Here are some ideas I've used:

• Terrain/minions/ritual that grant stacking attacking bonus to solo.
• Trait that prevents stacking on any conditions, including attack penalties (even those that normally would stack), explained by an ettin or hydra's dual brain, a dragon or lich's magical protections, etc.
• A nasty reactive power that triggers when it misses its 3rd attack (or when it's imposed attack penalty reaches -4 or worse), preferably something with strong control or auto-damage.
• Phased solo shaking off all attack penalties between phases (no action; triggers at HP=X).
• A mode the monster can enter when "shut down by attack penalties" with superior defensive capability, possibly with retributive damage or opportunity attacks (with a buff to attack) for enemies who hit or miss.

If it gets really out of hand, talk with the players about choosing different powers which don't impose attack penalties. IMHO the abundance of defense/attack penalties is one of the worst design elements of 4e, both from a keeping track sense and from a PC-monster parity sense.