BoVD Thoughts

[hellbender]

If you haven't read Monte Cook's post on both BoVD and his Dragon article, I think you'll find it of interest, Hellbender, and perhaps be reassured somewhat by it. The link was posted earlier in the thread, and here it is again.

I'm very encouraged by the tone of this new thread. These boards were as 'evil' as I've ever seen them on Friday, but it heartens me to see cooler heads prevail.

Thank you for the link, I just read it thoroughly. And while I can agree with the points, the main one being, none of us have seen it, and it is speculation, the point I am trying to drive home is that doesn't matter, look how the rumors have us divided already. And I imagine most of us play, and are involved in the same hobby.

Can you imagine the rumors in the general populace? They will paint the book to be worse than it is. It doesn't matter if you don't care what others think or say about our hobby, some little nitwit somewhere will do something stupid, there will be a lawsuit, and then we will get lots of attention. And I don't put it past the antagonists of our hobby to stage something to draw negative attention the book and the game, in which case, the book is just a catalyst.

As I have stated countless times, I know Monte Cook will hit these themes as a professional, he has written excellent gaming material. His post makes sense, I can see how people could use it, but hackles will get raised and the knee-jerks will try to have their day.

I wish I could live in a world where I am just oblivious to everything and everyone around me, not caring one wit what others say, but there is no need to draw undue attention to our hobby.

hellbender

 

[Buttercup]

I have to repley to something that Buttercup said of the people from group A. Its not that we actually care about what some of the nuts out there think about D&D. Its what they may actually try.

The fear and lies spread in the 80's by such groups as BADD made it very hard to be a gamer. Now I like to think that we live in an more enlightened time. But there are always those that are looking for something to destroy.

If you did not game in the eighties then you can't entirely know what it was like. If you did I apologize for this

I wasn't a gamer in the 80s. But I was into some other things that were just as socially unacceptable. Never mind what, I'm merely bringing the point up to illustrate that I *do* know what it's like to do or believe in something that is widely disapproved of. I suppose I lost my concern for society's good opinion back then. If I had been a minor, things might have been different. But I haven't been a minor since, um, 1977.

 

[Gothmog]

I too was a gamer in the 80's- in fact I started gaming in 3rd grade during 1983. I remember the BADD comments, the fuss parents made over D&D, and I remember showing my folks the D&D books and talking about it with them to calm their fears. My parents are strong Christians, and if I can put to rest any of their doubts, I know there isn't much in the game that is objectionable. Heck, my dad even gamed with us quite a few times and helped me pull off several pranks to scare people in the game (dressing up like a robed figure and coming out of the closet at one point. I have a cool dad )

Anyway, compared to the 80's, in 2002 there is almost nothing to worry about. Where D&D players used to be thought of as fringe weirdos, slightly deranged, and possibly in league with occult forces, we are now seen as smart geeks, with slightly retarded social skills, who are more into a more into a quiet night at home than raising hell at the local bar (whether this assumption is true or not, it is the popular stereotype of gamers). Recent tv shows such as the Simpsons, Dexter's Lab, and the Christina Applegate show that was on a few years ago actually paint gamers in a harmless (if not fairly positive) light.

When I was in undergrad, I lived in the buckle of the Bible Belt (Springfield MO, the Assemby of God World HQ is there), and I had NO trouble finding new players or convincing them to give gaming a shot. It doesn't even take much talking to get female players to my table (the majority of new gamers I have had have been female), and they never once thought that D&D was satanic, evil, etc. One book, ten books, even 100 books about evil and its effects in the game won't have a significant dent in how the public percieves our hobby now. The people who want to control what we see, read, and hear are more concerned about music, tv, and video games now. If you don't like the idea of some more graphic/lurid themes in your game, then don't use them, but please don't try to restict what others can say or do in their games. So I say, bring on the BoVD!

 

[Buttercup]

I wish I could live in a world where I am just oblivious to everything and everyone around me, not caring one wit what others say, but there is no need to draw undue attention to our hobby.

Hi, hellbender! I have some questions for you, and I don't mean any of them in an inflamatory way. OK?

Do you have close family who object to D&D? How about friends who object? Coworkers? Because if you do, that explains your worries to me, I guess. I sincerely hope you aren't wasting your energy and brainwaves worrying about what strangers think. If you are, please tell me why?

See, I really don't have anyone in my world who feels that way. I have no family left, and my husband's family are all educated, reasonable people. Since they live in another state, none of them actually know that we play D&D (we don't see them often enough for it to have come up), but if they did, they wouldn't care. They might think of it as a pathetically geeky passtime, akin to dressing up like a klingon or something. But the whole satanism thing wouldn't even occur to them. My friends all pretty much have the same world view as me--that's why we're friends. My coworkers either don't know I play, or don't care, or they play with me.

 

[derverdammte]

Gothmog said:
Anyway, compared to the 80's, in 2002 there is almost nothing to worry about. Where D&D players used to be thought of as fringe weirdos, slightly deranged, and possibly in league with occult forces, we are now seen as smart geeks, with slightly retarded social skills, who are more into a more into a quiet night at home than raising hell at the local bar (whether this assumption is true or not, it is the popular stereotype of gamers). Recent tv shows such as the Simpsons, Dexter's Lab, and the Christina Applegate show that was on a few years ago actually paint gamers in a harmless (if not fairly positive) light.

I have to agree here. I think the general public impression of gamers and D&D is more akin to what they think of Trekkies--there just aren't as many bizarre satanist conspiracy theories anymore.

 

[rackabello]

...look how the rumors have us divided already. And I imagine most of us play, and are involved in the same hobby.
Can you imagine the rumors in the general populace? They will paint the book to be worse than it is. It doesn't matter if you don't care what others think or say about our hobby, some little nitwit somewhere will do something stupid, there will be a lawsuit, and then we will get lots of attention. And I don't put it past the antagonists of our hobby to stage something to draw negative attention the book and the game, in which case, the book is just a catalyst.

I quite agree that this has been a divisive subject within the hobby, but I remain unconvinced that this will make a major impact on the general populace. I think the passion we've shown is directly proportional to our passion for RPGs.

Certainly if there is some tragedy which can be associated with our game -- and Heaven forbid -- there will be some negative press and probably grassroots opposition of BAD&D's ilk. However, it occurs to me that this would likely be the case with or without the BoVD. It also occurs to me that heavy metal music and violent computer games have weathered such storms, though not without adopting voluntary rating systems.

 

[Carnifex]

Can you imagine the rumors in the general populace? They will paint the book to be worse than it is. It doesn't matter if you don't care what others think or say about our hobby, some little nitwit somewhere will do something stupid, there will be a lawsuit, and then we will get lots of attention. And I don't put it past the antagonists of our hobby to stage something to draw negative attention the book and the game, in which case, the book is just a catalyst.

The general populace really wont give a damn. Look at the news, you'll see far worse things every day. Something like this is of absolutely no import to most people.

If a lawsuit did occur over it, which is IMO a virtual impossibility, it'd only serve to make people look at those complaining and make them think ' god, what nitwits, getting so worked up over something so small'. Anyway, such troublemakers have far easier targets in the forms of things like the music and video game industries. Drawing attention to the BOVD these days really wouldn't have any particular impact.

 

[RobNJ]

I do find it funny that people feel that 'nobody cares about DnD anymore' and that any concern is just some 80's fad. It is not whether they are concerned or not (obviously there are groups that are, look around), but the extent to which they will carry out their protests. For crying out loud, look around on the internet for anti-DnD sites, Bother About Dungeons and Dragons is still operating.

You know, I could put up a website that has lots and lots of information about how much I despise the Dutch, but that doesn't mean there's an important or significant anti-Dutch movement.

 

[RobNJ]

but I wonder why the need for a book like this in the first place. If you want to go darker and viler that is fine, but isn't it possibly to come up with these rules on your own as a DM?

Let me be obnoxious and answer a question with a question:

If you're the type of DM who likes a high magic campaign, why do you need something like the Forgotten Realms? If you want to have a high magic campaign that iss fine, but isn't it possibly to come up with this world on your own as a DM?

Try this one:

If you're the type of DM who likes monsters, why do you need something like the Monster Manual? If you want to fight monsters, that is fine, but isn't it possibly to come up with these monsters on your own as a DM?

I personally find rape offensive and not a necessity in any role playing game, and I am glad I don't have players that find it an aspect of roleplaying,

I find rape offensive, too (I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to disagree with that), being someone who is in love with a rape survivor. That doesn't mean that I think that fiction about it shouldn't exist, and that it isn't an incredibly powerful evil.

I remember in listening to stories about Kosovar Muslim women who were rape survivors on NPR, and I found it deeply unsettling and I thought, "There mst bethere were some way to capture this feeling of just hopeless horror when I'm writing, I want to do it." Of course, then I read George R. R. Martin's descriptions of the effects of war in his Songs of Fire and Ice series and felt daunted in my task. I dont' think there's anything wrong with wanting your fiction to be just as unsettling.

 

[RobNJ]

Let me close by saying that nothing above was intended as trolling or flame bait, and I hope it didn't come across that way.

Far from it, I find myself trying mightily to restrain myself from acting out a banal internet passion play: The admiration-of-an-forum-post snap marriage proposal.