BoVD Thoughts

[rackabello]

I am concerned about MC's comment about how that powers-that-be wanted him to make the book more "vile"....and I would be horrified to see all of d&d begin to go in that direction due to great sales of BoVD.

[I am concerned about t]he powers-that-be taking the sales as a sign to go ahead and drive d&d to...low-brow "evil is kewl"

I share your concerns here, Furn, about the possibility that WotC may choose to focus too narrowly in this direction. It seems unlikely to me but, as you write, we can only wait and see.

 

[Al]

Because if that doesn't offend you, why does the rest of this? I find the fascist implications of the standard D&D storyline as performed by heroes far more disturbing than anything the villains could do.

Hah. This reminds me of when the PCs once burst in on my evil priest, and instead of raining down fire, he asked them why they had the right to kill him. That stumped them. I mean, they had killed far more people in their career than he had...

Furn:

I am concerned about MC's comment about how that powers-that-be wanted him to make the book more "vile".

But, as Monte said, he resisted them. So what's the concern with BoVD? If Hasbro release a later book 'Book of Very Vile Darkness' or equivalent, then perhaps this is a legitimate concern.

I understand the rest of your concerns, but realistically, is this the trend? I don't get Dragon, but for the most part, I am not witnessing this trend. Obviously, from what I've gathered, the recent Dragon was slightly more edgy, but that is because it was themed that way to 'celebrate' the launch of BoVD. Aside from BoVD, there is no real rush for evil content.

I also invite you to look at many of the splatbooks- most of them are hero/villian neutral. They have plenty of options in there for villians- or else I have been foolish in using a lot of it for my villians.

Well, aside from contradicting your above argument (i.e. DnD is getting more evil) then I would dispute this point. It may be true that a lot of the splatbooks have been hero/villain neutral: I freely concede that. What I meant what that there have been some which are hero/villain neutral, and some which are hero-orientated. There is a paucity of the villain-orientated books. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in the first place.

I wish I could live in a world where I am just oblivious to everything and everyone around me, not caring one wit what others say, but there is no need to draw undue attention to our hobby.

Go up to the average person in the street and ask him what he thinks of Dungeons and Dragons. Count how many people say 'evil', even after the 80s furore. Try a public awareness test with any of the following names: BADD, Jack Chick, Mazes and Monsters, Dark Dungeons, Pat Pulling. Observe results. Draw conclusions.

 

[Kichwas]

I find rape offensive, too (I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone to disagree with that), being someone who is in love with a rape survivor. That doesn't mean that I think that fiction about it shouldn't exist, and that it isn't an incredibly powerful evil.

There's a difference between rape in fiction and rape in roleplay.

In roleplay, especially when it's good; you are -there- with your character feeling and experiencing what they feel and experience. Put in a rape scene and it can get personal very fast. You can very easily leave one or more players feeling very upset and shell shocked after such a scene.

Put it in when you have someone in the group who is a survivor or close to a survivor and it can be traumatic or worse.

If you really feel it to be needed, you should clear it way ahead of time. A group desiring dark themes should sit down and work out their comfort zones before play, so everyone can avoid hitting on topics that risk bringing a person back into a real world traumatic event or even just making the experience of the game wholly unenjoyable.

I've had rape themes shoved down my throat by three DMs over the years, and I didn't appreciate it on any of these occaisions. In the first two it resulted in the end of friendships and me leaving groups behind. The third is more recent and is something I am still dealing with how I wish to address. It was discussed and I presmed dropped, but inuendos to it still linger. I'm not a rape survivor myself, but I'm close to a number of them (both men and women).

 

[Sulimo]

Personally, I dont have a problem with the BoVD at all. Although I can understand any concern about putting a chunk of it in Dragon.

Although I havent seen Dragon #300, spells like the demon seed one gives me the impression that it wont be a mature exploration of evil. More like the titillation found in anime like Legend of the Overfiend.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Far from it, I find myself trying mightily to restrain myself from acting out a banal internet passion play: The admiration-of-an-forum-post snap marriage proposal.

I had the same reaction, but knew she was taken.

 

[Kichwas]

Now that it's not dangerous anymore, you don't get the druggie burnouts playing.

I had to kick a player out of my group last year for bringing his meth pipe to the game.

 

[RobNJ]

I think you are being flippant about these concerns.

No one expected the initial attacks on d&d.

True, but during the initial concerns there were no such thing as ultraviolent, hyper-realistic video games. Or omni-present, inescapeable, baroque-beyond-body-part-identification internet porn. Or top 10 songs where every third word is bleeped out. Or a show on prime time with a former mass murderer as its hero (Angel).

This is not 1980. Not even if acid wash jeans are coming back.

 

[RobNJ]

There's a difference between rape in fiction and rape in roleplay.

In roleplay, especially when it's good; you are -there- with your character feeling and experiencing what they feel and experience.

The same's the case in really good fiction. Even in crappy fiction, for that matter. In my experience the feeling of immediacy of novels is far greater than of any other medium, even really good role playing.

I'll agree with your basic premise, though. Rape plots in roleplaying are different. You're sitting in someone's home and there's a social pressure (if others seem to be enjoying the game) not to complain. So I agree with you, if you're going to be having not-fit-for-all-audiences content in your games, such as rape, you need to bring it up before hand.

That doesn't mean it should be verboten in all cases or that people who want to see such content or discuss it ought to be labeled as immature or budding rapists or what have you.

 

[RobNJ]

I had to kick a player out of my group last year for bringing his meth pipe to the game.

I'm envious. The biggest scandal at my games is there's this one guy who's really annoying but his wife is close friends with the wife of the guy whose house we game at .

(by the way, if this was some serious kind of problem for you and isn't intended as a wacky story, let me apologize up front)

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Well, aside from contradicting your above argument (i.e. DnD is getting more evil) then I would dispute this point.

It is not a contradiction, because that was not my argument. My argument is about the attitude and style of d&d, not merely its subject matter.

There is a paucity of the villain-orientated books.

What books do you feel are hero-oriented?

I have trouble of thinking of one beyond the Hero Builders Guidebook.

Villians had, some-what, Enemies&Allies and Lords of Darkness from WOTC. There is also a Kenzer book and a AEG book. (BTW- I am a pleased owner of the AEG book.) I suspect there are more that I am not aware of from d20 publishers.

But, as Monte said, he resisted them. So what's the concern with BoVD?

I will wait and see. MC said he resisted them, but that does not mean it is not already at the "corpsebond" level.

I understand the rest of your concerns, but realistically, is this the trend?

I have seen the trend in Dragon. Others have disagreed with me. I would rather not hijack the discussion by going down that route.

FD