BoVD Thoughts

[rackabello]

If you really feel it to be needed, you should clear it way ahead of time. A group desiring dark themes should sit down and work out their comfort zones before play, so everyone can avoid hitting on topics that risk bringing a person back into a real world traumatic event or even just making the experience of the game wholly unenjoyable.

This is excellent advice. The ability to make this sort of considered, collective decision about the tone of one's game is a true mark of a mature gamer, regardless of the style of play.

I've had rape themes shoved down my throat by three DMs over the years, and I didn't appreciate it on any of these occaisions. In the first two it resulted in the end of friendships and me leaving groups behind. The third is more recent and is something I am still dealing with how I wish to address. It was discussed and I presmed dropped, but inuendos to it still linger.

My sympathies. Let the air out of their tires on your way out of the session if they can't learn to respect your discomfort with this theme. I am quite glad it was left out of the BoVD, AFAIK (Monte having said that sexual themes were not covered).

 

[Furn_Darkside]

True, but during the initial concerns there were no such thing as ........

No, but it was during the time of the slasher film flood, heavy metal became mainstream (thanks to the PMRC), and while you did not have Jerry Springer- you had Morton Downey.

Let me put it this way- I don't think d&d would be targetted because it is d&d, but look at last summer headines:

"Shark Attack!" Even though there were no more attacks then in previous years.

This summer:

"Child Kidnapped!" Even though the number of kidnappings have been going down for years.

It is not reason that determines what makes national attention.

It is what is convenient and sensational. It would only take one loser to kill himself or someone else while owning the BoVD to possibly start the hysteria once again. (note the "possibly")

But- as I said, considering the timing of the release. I have strong doubts that this will happen.

FD

edit: fixed bad spelling. Bad spelling! sit!

 

[hellbender]

Hi, hellbender! I have some questions for you, and I don't mean any of them in an inflamatory way. OK?

Hello there. No problem on the questions, and I won't take them in an inflammatory way.

Do you have close family who object to D&D? How about friends who object? Coworkers? Because if you do, that explains your worries to me, I guess. I sincerely hope you aren't wasting your energy and brainwaves worrying about what strangers think. If you are, please tell me why?

Close family, yes. As to the previous poster mentioning his family was as Christian as it gets, no, sorry, I have a grandmother that would burn our books and hang us all as devils for playing, and yes, it does bother me that she feels that way, the game did, after all, keep me out of drugs and most other mischief. Coworkers, well, many of those working in my profession also did the artwork for the book, and I am not 100% on how they all feel about it, other than Wizards pays well for artwork.
However, I do 'waste' brainwaves on what others think. For myself, the book is of no consequence, but I cannot see how it will invite people to our hobby. I noticed you mentioned the First Amendment before, there are ways of pressuring book outlets and games stores to not carry this and other books that basically lends itself to censorship. Many people are right, this is not the 80's anymore, there is far more control than there was back then.

See, I really don't have anyone in my world who feels that way. I have no family left, and my husband's family are all educated, reasonable people. Since they live in another state, none of them actually know that we play D&D (we don't see them often enough for it to have come up), but if they did, they wouldn't care. They might think of it as a pathetically geeky passtime, akin to dressing up like a klingon or something. But the whole satanism thing wouldn't even occur to them. My friends all pretty much have the same world view as me--that's why we're friends. My coworkers either don't know I play, or don't care, or they play with me.

I don't think a person's understanding or lack thereof of our hobby makes a person reasonable or not. I make money creating art, and many people find that incomprehensible, doesn't make them irrational, they just see the world differently. And yes, most people see it is geeky, until they see a book on evil, then take things more seriously.
Hey, if I am being Chicken Little, I am actually happy for it. I really don't want anything to happen to compromise our hobby. I do hope I am wrong. Completely and helplessly wrong. And if so, I will apologize to one and all, but I just cannot see anything good coming down the pike from what I have seen.

hellbender

 

[hellbender]

No, but it was during the time of the slasher film flood, heavy metal became mainstream (thanks to the PMRC), and while you did not have Jerry Springer- you had Morton Downey.

Let me put it this way- I don't think d&d would be targetted because it is d&d, but look at last summer headines:

"Shark Attack!" Even though there were no more attacks then in previous years.

This summer:

"Child Kidnapped!" Even though the number of kidnappings have been going down for years.

It is not reason that determines what makes national attention.

It is what is convenient and senational. It would only take one loser to kill himself or someone else while owning the BoVD to possibly start the hysteria once again. (note the "possibly")

But- as I said, considering the timing of the release. I have strong doubts that this will happen.

FD

These sentiments, are mine exactly, I was going to reply to Carnifex with basically the same thing. Flip on CNN. Some old guy cut down a tree last week that people saw the Virgin Mary in because he considered it an eyesore. That type of news is called a distration, to take your mind off of current events and make you think about other concerns. Also, the sound bytes were misleading, to misconstrue the story, wich is a tactic of manipulation to toss an idea into a person's head. Sorry if this goes over a few heads, and to bring it back to topic, basically, any news source can re-open this can of worms and say anything they want to, making things much worse than they really are. That is my concern. And I agree on the possibly as well. I hope it is nothing, but stores are already refusing to carry the book. What have they been told to cause such apprehension about something they haven't even seen?


hellbender

 

[Monte At Home]

This is excellent advice. The ability to make this sort of considered, collective decision about the tone of one's game is a true mark of a mature gamer, regardless of the style of play.

Which was, in fact, the whole point of the article that I wrote which seems to have stirred so many people up.

Originally posted by Furn Darkside

It is what is convenient and senational. It would only take one loser to kill himself or someone else while owning the BoVD to possibly start the hysteria once again.

But then, if I read your post correctly, there's just as much chance of this happening with MM 2 (full of demons and undead) or City of the Spider Queen (full of demons, undead and depraved villains). I suppose if one really worries about this, you've really got to hold your breath in fear every time WotC comes out with a new book. Although even then, we're not safe. What if someone kills himself and there's a PH on his desk? What if it's a 2E or 1E PH? The effect is the same. What if it's a copy of the Lord of the Rings on his desk? Or a Star Trek Encyclopedia? Or Warcraft III is still playing on his computer? I guess it's always a risk, and we should be aware of it*, but at the same time, we can't live our lives in fear of the reprisals of those who don't understand something that we like.

*And in fact, the game industry, through GAMA, is aware of the risk, and has someone (Mike Stackpole) who deals with it.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

But then, if I read your post correctly, there's just as much chance of this happening with MM 2 (full of demons and undead) or City of the Spider Queen (full of demons, undead and depraved villains).

With no disrespect intended, Mr.Cook, there would be one big difference between those books and BoVD- and it is all in the name.

The media seems to love sounds bites- and the "Book of Vile Darkness" being involved in some sensational news is more likely to be attractive to the media then "Monster Manual 2".

That is interesting about GAMA, I had no idea they had a specific person assigned to deal with such cases.

FD

 

[Monte At Home]

As someone who cowrote something called Hellbound, who watched as Faces of Evil and a Guide to Hell was published, who looks on his shelf by his computer to see Lords of Darkness, and Legions of Hell, and knows that in another room in the house there's a shelf with a book called Denizens of Darkness and other just simply called "Evil," I don't think the name is really risking much.

In fact, I know D&D detractors that would look upon a title like "Traps and Treachery" or "Tome and Blood" with as much suspicion and foreboding as "Book of Vile Darkness." (From a non-gamer perspective, the first sounds like a how-to guide to betray and hurt people, the second sounds like a how-to guide to occult self mutilation and sacrifice, and the third just sounds vague and disturbing.)

 

[The Traveler]

Personally I will use the BoVD to create truly evil villans, and thus increase the versimilitude of my campagin and give my players added motivation to expunge said evil villan. Does this make me a vile violence glorifying hethen? I would hope not.

One thing that bothers me, and strikes me as one of the main thrusts of those who like the BoVD, is the concept that one has to be "icky" to be evil, and that those that don't address these comments are somehow selling themselves or their players short with the "fluffy bunny version" of D&D. To me, it smacks of a very sophomoric vision of evil, a sort of splatterpunk sensibility that does not show the true impact of the depravity it wishes to portray. If you put too much of this stuff in, it just becomes an inane cartoon, not a fleshed out mature portrayal of evil.

While I don't agree with Hickman on his idea of the comic book code, I think WotC's bent on emphasizing how monstrously depraved they intend this to be is undermining their credibility on this issue.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: BoVD Thoughts

One thing that bothers me, and strikes me as one of the main thrusts of those who like the BoVD...

I agree with your general point, but just to state it again- no one has seen BoVD. Wait and see. Wait and see!

Er, ok, Mr. Cook has seen it, but he is not one of the people you are referring to in your post.

FD

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I don't think the name is really risking much.

You are probably correct- it was not really my concern in the first place, just an attempt to understand the perspective of those concerned about public backlash.

FD- still waiting to see.