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D&D 6E bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
I think the issue with any generically evil creature (let's call them Blargs) is that at some point someone is going to start identifying with them because Blargs are outcasts from normal society that are feared and some people feel like they don't fit in. Then they want to play a Blarg so we come up with stats. The next thing you know, it's a bad thing that Blargs are a representation of people that are prejudiced against. Since we can no longer have generically evil Blargs we come up with something completely different called Blurgs. The cycle continues.

So I don't think we can change this. For some people having a generic bad guy monster that someone can identify with will be considered wrong. Other people just want something for generic bad guys.

For me? It's just a game and I think people read too much into this. I just finished playing Half-Life Alyx after getting a new VR headset (awesome game by the way) and I have no qualms about mowing down the enemy in this or any other video game I've ever played. Is that over-simplified, not realistic? Absolutely. It's a game.

In any case, I'm assuming this thread will be shut down soon, but I don't think changing the imagery of orcs or introducing Blargs (humanoid or not) will change anything. I'll just continue using orcs in the role that makes sense for my world.
 

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Istbor

Dances with Gnolls
1) orcs have been becoming more and more human like and its made them less interesting plus like drow they are a future problem for an everchanging society
2) if not maybe a variant
3) the orc name is from "pig faced"

hobgoblin
1) hobgoblins need something . Over the years kobolds, gnolls, bugbears and even goblins have become more interesting. Kobolds became inventors and the design has greatly improved. Same with gnolls. hobgoblins have been dulled down (they are the military/armored slightly stronger goblin) and often get sort of lumped in with orcs (theres nothing that really jumps out about a hobgoblin)
2) I think they need a change-Maybe they are cannibals, maybe they have a unique spell/ability , give them a distinct appearance (I would make them more like the falmer of elder scrolls-scary)
Orcs:
1) Meh, I like them better as they have developed. And frankly, I never even played the game when they were depicted as having pig faces. Just knew it was that way once.
2) I mean sure. If that floats your boat. Honestly, if you like pig faces, just make your orcs have pig faces. Personally, my favorite orcs are ones that run around screaming "Waaaaagh!" and asking if you can make it more choppy, and bring more dakka.
3) Not certain where you are getting this origin? Do you have a source to cite? I would be interested in reading it.

HobGoblins:
1) I will echo really liking their more disciplined roman legion take. That definitely sets them apart from regular Goblins. And when used smartly, they can really surprise players that are only expecting tougher Goblins.
2) I am not sure what change would be needed presently. When I depict them it is as taller, goblinoids with impeccable posture. They carry themselves as professionals and a not-so-subtle whiff of arrogance.
 

aco175

Legend
I tend to limit the number of bad/monster races running around. I like using goblins or kobolds and hobgoblins or orcs or gnolls. Some depends on where the party it climate-wise. Right now I'm running the Icespire peak box and have orcs and goblins around. There could be a stray bugbear, but not planning on hobgoblins and gnolls. I always figured that the monster races would clash more than the player races and one of those three groups would settle the region. I also tend to place gnolls in more scrub/desert regions and orcs in more hilly/mountains, but for Icespire- they are built in.

I would like to see some more niche for most of these races.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
Fizbang the Munificent Mage: So, uh, I traveled back in time.

Gork the Orc: Cool, man.

Fizbang: Yeah, I uh, was wandering around this keep, and got caught up in an adventure ....

Gork: Great!

Fizbang: And I ran into some of your, um, compatriots from back then ....

B2_Cover.png


Gork: ................

Fizbang: They looked a little ... you know ... strange ....

Gork: .................

Fizbang: Anything you wanna tell me, Gork?

Gork: WE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT IT!
Those are hobgoblins though, right?
 

I see Orcs as having Human-like noses, but often bigger than Humans in that it's wider or protrudes out more. Often there's a ridge down the middle, and their noses may come to a hook.

Goblins and Hobgoblins I see similarly having bigger more prominent noses than Human do. Bugbears though I see them with flatter noses.
 

Voadam

Legend
Those are hobgoblins though, right?
Correct.

"Description: The hairy hides of hobgoblins range from dark reddish-brown to gray black. Their faces are bright red-orange to red. Large males will have blue-red noses. Eyes are either yellowish or dark brown. Teeth are yellowed white to dirty yellow. Hobgoblins favor bright, bloody colors and black leather. They keep weapons well polished. Hobgoblins live for 60 years."
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
I love Dungeon Meshi’s design for orcs. “Pig-faced” in a way that looks natural for a humanoid face, rather than going full-on Gamorean. Endomorphic instead of mesomorphic, which fits with the piglike appearance and brings some welcome body diversity to the table. Two-toed. Mottled pink and gray flesh tone. Coarse boar-like fur.

EDIT: Couldn’t get the image to work. 😤
 


dave2008

Legend
As per the recent UA, hobgoblins seem to be reverting to what they where before Tolkien turned them into GenericSoldiersOfEvil(TM).
Hmm. IIRC, the hobgoblins of Tolkien were specifically not the generic soldiers of evil. The were a cross between a traditional orc and a human to make them stronger in general and specifically in sunlight.
 

MGibster

Legend
I honestly never used hobgoblins back in the day because I didn't see the point in another generic evil humanoid race. i.e. I didn't fee as though I could do anything with the hobgoblin that I couldn't do just as well with an orc. I welcome the Romanesque hobgoblin of modern times.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I honestly never used hobgoblins back in the day because I didn't see the point in another generic evil humanoid race. i.e. I didn't fee as though I could do anything with the hobgoblin that I couldn't do just as well with an orc. I welcome the Romanesque hobgoblin of modern times.
Theoretically, hobgoblins were more organized, disciplined, and militarily strategic with use of tactics. But, as you say, it's super easy to have orcs do the same thing.
 

wicked cool

Adventurer
just an fyi theres a Q&A with gary gygax on his version of orcs (2002-2008). Col_Pladoh (exact date is March 13,2007)

orcs-porcupine in appearance with upturned nose, tusks pig like eyes
hobgoblins-Apish

if you make your orcs wear legion like armor than hobgolins are just a name. maybe hobgoblins need to have legion tactics added to their descriptions like roman soldiers(the testudo, the wedge, ballista etc)
 


Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
Legend of Zelda essentially uses "pig-faced folk" or bokoblins as their generic bad-guy stand-in. I don't find this look inherently better than any other, and I certainly don't think D&D would suddenly have unique orcs for using it (the bokoblins are quite iconic, as are Star Wars' Gamorrians).

That said, the pig-look can be made to look intimidating indeed. Check out this art by Dave Repoza, depicting Zelda's Ganon;

1617903316622.png
 

embee

Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
Gork: WE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT IT!

From the CLASSIC DS9 episode "Trials & Tribble-ations":

The waitress points to the nearby table Bashir and O'Brien passed earlier. They turn and look with some surprise at the original series-style Klingons, who do not have the typical forehead ridges they're accustomed to seeing. Worf studies his drink as the others turn one and look at him for explanation.

BASHIR
(to Worf)
Those are Klingons?

WAITRESS
All right. You boys have had
enough.

The Waitress moves off.

ODO
Mister Worf... ?

Worf looks up with discomfort at the three expectant
faces.

WORF
They are Klingons.

Three heads turn and look at the Klingons and then look
back at Worf.

WORF
It is a... long story.

O'BRIEN
What happened? Some kind
genetic engineering... ?

BASHIR
A viral mutation... ?

WORF
(defensive)
We do not discuss it with
outsiders.
 

Hmm. IIRC, the hobgoblins of Tolkien were specifically not the generic soldiers of evil. The were a cross between a traditional orc and a human to make them stronger in general and specifically in sunlight.
No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.
 

delericho

Legend
Orcs were pig-faced in the old cartoon, weren't they?

Personally, I lean towards one-eyed orcs, based on a picture I saw once (can't think where). But I'm really not bothered about how they are depicted.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen
Hmm. IIRC, the hobgoblins of Tolkien were specifically not the generic soldiers of evil. The were a cross between a traditional orc and a human to make them stronger in general and specifically in sunlight.


No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.
You’re both kind of right.

It’s important to note that in Tolkien’s Middle Earth, orc and goblin are not the names of different races or breeds of creature (contrary to what the Peter Jackson films suggest). Goblin and Orc are both just English translations of the Westron word Orca, and refer to the same species (much like Billbo Baggins is a localization of the character’s canonical name, Bilba Labingi). The word “hobgoblin” only appears twice in the legendarium, both in The Hobbit, and both in reference to a larger variety of goblin. But remember, in canon The Hobbit is an English translation of an in-universe book written by Bilba. So “hobgoblin” is an English translation of some Westron word he used to refer to “a larger variety of (orc),” which certainly could mean Uruk-Hai. And indeed, with his Wattsonian hat on, Tolkien notes that it is possible this is what Bilba meant. With his Doylist hat on, he would likely admit the languages were still in an earlier stage of development at the time, and that he accidentally used it to mean the opposite of its real-world meaning.
 
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Urriak Uruk

Debate fuels my Fire
No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.
You’re thinking of Uruk-hai.

It’s important to note that in Tolkien’s Middle Earth, orc and goblin are not the names of different races or breeds of creature. Goblin and Orc are both just English translations of the Westron word Orca, and refer to the same species (much like Billbo Baggins is a localization of the character’s canonical name, Bilba Labingi). The word “hobgoblin” only appears twice in the legendarium, both in The Hobbit, and both in reference to a larger variety of goblin. With his Wattsonian hat on, Tolkien notes that the word most likely refers to Uruks.

He's technically, maybe correct here... hobgoblin is mentioned only once in the Hobbit, as a larger form of orc, and there is some assumption they are similar to Uruk-Hai. It is a throw-away line though, and nothing is actually confirmed one way or another.

 

Now I want to homebrew a layer of hell called Orcus Porcus. All pigs, for miles.

Thinking about it, was the origin of the Devil-Swine just a big Latin joke?

To nitpick - because hey, it's what we do:

Origin
View attachment 135281

Aesthetically, I love the pig-faced orc designs.

Hobgoblins have always felt like filler for me. Their identity has never clicked for me in the same way orcs and goblins have.
 

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