D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Faolyn]

Nah dude, even with the Volo’s Guide lore, I think the notion that they’re incapable of being good to be bollocks. “They’re hyenas mutated by eating demon-tainted flesh” doesn’t explain why they wouldn’t be able to be good. Either they’re driven by instinct (in which case they should be Unaligned), or they’re capable of rational thought (in which case they should be capable of Good.)

Some of the stuff in Volo's seems to indicate that it's almost more like they're possessed than anything else. The sidebar with the guy who lopped off the gnoll's limbs and it kept going--it felt to me like the animating force was something apart from the actual body.

Which, in and of itself, is a cool and horrific idea. People eat this tainted flesh, which causes a parasitic demon to grow within them and take over. They become effectively rage zombies because of it, but they retain enough of their mind so that they can make decisions and form semi-cohesive groups, and the demonic aspect focuses the rage in a way that suits Yeenoghu.

Having it limited to gnolls only is dumb, though. Even in that sidebar, the guy "caught" the gnoll's madness and became a cultist. This should be an effect that can spread regardless of race, maybe by sneaking the demon-tainted meat into other people's diets or using it to pollute wells. Gnolls could still be Yeenoghu's favored race (maybe he made them before he became an Archfiend, or maybe he just likes hyenas), but this would allow for lots of gnolls, maybe even a majority of them, to be free of this curse.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Having it limited to gnolls only is dumb, though. Even in that sidebar, the guy "caught" the gnoll's madness and became a cultist. This should be an effect that can spread regardless of race, maybe by sneaking the demon-tainted meat into other people's diets or using it to pollute wells. Gnolls could still be Yeenoghu's favored race (maybe he made them before he became an Archfiend, or maybe he just likes hyenas), but this would allow for lots of gnolls, maybe even a majority of them, to be free of this curse.

I think part of the idea is that only hyenas can actually become gnolls, so a human can at best become a cultist? I dunno though.

 

[Faolyn]

I think part of the idea is that only hyenas can actually become gnolls, so a human can at best become a cultist? I dunno though.

Yeah, that's a part I'd get rid of, if I use this rage zombie/cordyceps demon idea.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Yeah, that's a part I'd get rid of, if I use this rage zombie/cordyceps demon idea.

just give it a generic name and some unit types and you would have a whole new monster type.

 

[Charlaquin]

Some of the stuff in Volo's seems to indicate that it's almost more like they're possessed than anything else. The sidebar with the guy who lopped off the gnoll's limbs and it kept going--it felt to me like the animating force was something apart from the actual body.

Which, in and of itself, is a cool and horrific idea. People eat this tainted flesh, which causes a parasitic demon to grow within them and take over. They become effectively rage zombies because of it, but they retain enough of their mind so that they can make decisions and form semi-cohesive groups, and the demonic aspect focuses the rage in a way that suits Yeenoghu.

Having it limited to gnolls only is dumb, though. Even in that sidebar, the guy "caught" the gnoll's madness and became a cultist. This should be an effect that can spread regardless of race, maybe by sneaking the demon-tainted meat into other people's diets or using it to pollute wells. Gnolls could still be Yeenoghu's favored race (maybe he made them before he became an Archfiend, or maybe he just likes hyenas), but this would allow for lots of gnolls, maybe even a majority of them, to be free of this curse.

Now that’s a dope pitch.

 

[Oofta]

...
Biology is a red herring here. We’re talking about a fantastical world where gods provably exist and regularly meddle in mortal affairs, magic is real, and most myths are literally true. Biology as we understand it probably isn’t even a thing. The issue is the implication that evil is an inherent trait, passed along bloodlines. That the information is not passed by genes is completely irrelevant.
...

So what's confusing to me is that you're okay with biology not being a thing in a world of magic, gods provably exist and regularly meddle in mortal affairs. But it's not okay for a god to maintain control, maintain influence on their creations? The default assumption is that orcs were created to "wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk." They're a weapon.

Put this another way. Let's assume some alien civilization out there was at war. They create "the perfect soldier" by messing with their DNA and creating clones. They've altered the brain structure and chemistry so that they have no empathy, will not hesitate to follow orders and kill. But something goes wrong, their commanders die before they can shut down their soldiers and so they are following their last orders to the best of their abilities - kill everyone who is not part of their command structure or a fellow soldier. In order to continue the never-ending war, they figure out how to make more soldiers. There's no biological basis for them to have any moral qualms about killing someone outside of their order, in fact they are instinctually driven to kill every "other" that could pose a possible threat.

Sounds to me like standard sci-fi. Also a lot like orcs. Except of course, orcs can cross breed with humans because "magic", but if we can have half Vulcans I see no reason we can't have half orcs.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Put this another way. Let's assume some alien civilization out there was at war. They create "the perfect soldier" by messing with their DNA and creating clones. They've altered the brain structure and chemistry so that they have no empathy, will not hesitate to follow orders and kill. But something goes wrong, their commanders die before they can shut down their soldiers and so they are following their last orders to the best of their abilities - kill everyone who is not part of their command structure or a fellow soldier. In order to continue the never-ending war, they figure out how to make more soldiers. There's no biological basis for them to have any moral qualms about killing someone outside of their order, in fact they are instinctually driven to kill every "other" that could pose a possible threat.

Sounds to me like standard sci-fi. Also a lot like orcs. Except of course, orcs can cross breed with humans because "magic", but if we can have half Vulcans I see no reason we can't have half orcs.

This is kind of similar to how Xenomorphs came to be. They were made as weapons and then wiped out the civilization that made them.

To be clear I don't agree with you on orcs (they're very different than xenomorphs)... just pointing out the similarity in your sci-fi example.

 

[Charlaquin]

So what's confusing to me is that you're okay with biology not being a thing in a world of magic, gods provably exist and regularly meddle in mortal affairs. But it's not okay for a god to maintain control, maintain influence on their creations?

If they’re directly controlled by a god, they’re not really a race. They’re just automata, and at that point I don’t think “evil” is an accurate description. The god is evil, the creatures it controls are mindless drones.

The default assumption is that orcs were created to "wage an endless war on humans, elves, dwarves, and other folk." They're a weapon.

I don’t think that’s consistent with the lore. Gruumsh declared war on the other races only after the other gods cheated his people out of any habitable territory. Moreover, whatever they may have been created for, if they have free will, they should be capable of good. If they lack free will, evil isn’t an appropriate description.

Put this another way. Let's assume some alien civilization out there was at war. They create "the perfect soldier" by messing with their DNA and creating clones. They've altered the brain structure and chemistry so that they have no empathy, will not hesitate to follow orders and kill. But something goes wrong, their commanders die before they can shut down their soldiers and so they are following their last orders to the best of their abilities - kill everyone who is not part of their command structure or a fellow soldier. In order to continue the never-ending war, they figure out how to make more soldiers. There's no biological basis for them to have any moral qualms about killing someone outside of their order, in fact they are instinctually driven to kill every "other" that could pose a possible threat.

Sounds to me like standard sci-fi. Also a lot like orcs. Except of course, orcs can cross breed with humans because "magic", but if we can have half Vulcans I see no reason we can't have half orcs.

Yeah, but you wouldn’t call them “evil.” They’re amoral and driven to destruction, but they’re not “evil.”

You can have antagonists that are inherently antithetical to your protagonists. That’s not the same thing as calling a race “evil.”

 

[Oofta]

This is kind of similar to how Xenomorphs came to be. They were made as weapons and then wiped out the civilization that made them.

To be clear I don't agree with you on orcs (they're very different than xenomorphs)... just pointing out the similarity in your sci-fi example.

That is kind of where I was coming from. But to me the physical body is just the container for the brain. So if xenomorphs are okay I see no real difference based on implementation of form.

 

[Charlaquin]

That is kind of where I was coming from. But to me the physical body is just the container for the brain. So if xenomorphs are okay I see no real difference based on implementation of form.

Xenomorphs aren’t “evil.” They’re alien, predatory, destructive, take your pick. But evil? They don’t even seem sapient.