Brutal Seething Surge

[KarinsDad]

Re: Wow

I like the arguments both for and against this spell... Currently I think the vote is slightly leaning towards against the Spell.

Hmmm. At first the thread indicated that, but after some discussion, the most anti-spell comment recently is that the spell could be worrisome.

Casting two Spectral Hands never came to mind thanks for the Idea there......I only hit twice, now I can use it three times in a round.

The second Spectral Hand does not give you a second attack. It merely gives you a second ranged attack if you already have two attacks. A third Spectral Hand would give you a third ranged attack, if you happen to be Hasted as well.

As been pointed out, there are SO many ways to wipe out a Spectral Hand that it is not worth it. A single Magic Missile spell (with 5 missiles at that level) can definitely wipe out 2 and easily often wipe out 3 Spectral Hands at your level (81.25% chance on that third hand that only a single MM hits). Or, a single archer can often wipe out multiple Spectral Hands in a round at that level (if using magic arrows).

Or, avoid the Spectral Hands (e.g. first level Obscuring Mist).

If I were your DM, I would have NPCs take out the Spectral Hands and not worry at all about the spell in hand to hand combat. In hand to hand, it is just another spell. For you to get multiple attacks with it in hand to hand, you have to be within 10 feet of your opponent (35 feet if Hasted) so that you can move 5 (or 30) and do a Full Round Action.

Even with your Sorcerer having a Stoneskin up, an opponent Fighter, for example, ignores this spell totally unless you use it with Spectral Hand, or you come in for melee. Once you do that, he can easily whale back on you with a Full Round Attack. Yes, once in a while, you will Daze him before he can do that. But, if you do not, you are in for a world of hurt, even with things such as Mirror Image or Improved Invisibility up. At that level, even Fighters tend to have some form of counters to those types of spells.

I think the real issue here is that your DM is not playing powerful opponents intelligently. Once they see what you can do with the Spectral Hands (i.e. once an opponent is dazed), they should wipe those Spectral Hands out right away. Even getting damaged by a Spectral Hand/Surge combo for 15-20% of my hit points would have me wiping it out.

Plus, if they destroy the Spectral Hand, you lose the 1D4 hit points. If they destroy 2 of them, 2D4, 3 of them, 3D4. Plus, once they do that, you cannot cast any more of them without losing the Surge spell. Hehehe

I cannot see why this is more than a minor nuisance for your DM. At your level, I’d be more worried about Empowered, Empowered Lightning Bolts if I were him. Course, not if you do not have the Empowered feat. But if I had Spell Focus Evocation and Greater Spell Focus Evocation, I'd sure have Empower and Heighten (anti-Globe of Invulnerability feat) to go with it.

 

[Jeremy]

Compared to other 3rd level effects like Hold Person (rd per level helpless) or Suggestion (hr per level limited only by your creativity and DC), Daze is small potatoes. And as a damage spell, at 15th level an evoker doing 20 or so points of damage per spell to only a single target is a steal. As opposed to Maze'ing a target with no save, Ottos's Irresistable Dance with no save, or Horrid Wilting for 15d8 over 60 ft for 67 points of damage to 10 or so creatures for 670 damage instead of 20.

I agree, I can't see how a third level spell and a 2nd level spell are the problem. The spectral hand shouldn't survive a single round, and a simple minor globe will stop both spells. I mean at this point there could be prismatic sprays going off, fingers of feath, dominate persons, mass suggestions, cones of cold, feebleminds, hold monsters, force cages, disintegrates, flesh to stones, phantasmal killers, polymorph others (YOU are a large mouth BASS!).... Save or be Dazed is kinda insignificant. Save or be Held, Dominated, Disintegrated, Polymorphed, or blasted into teeny bits in thy mercy are other things that are happening at this level.

I think the perception might be off a little in your game of this spell simply because of good application of it so far. Because comparitively, it is nothing spectacular. Ice Claw Prisons, Glass Strikes, multiple enervations (you wanna talk about a mage killer, try losing your highest level spell for every negative level and then taking 8 of these puppies with no save)...

 

[JacktheRabbit]

NM

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I think the spell is OK. It can be really useful in certain circumstances, but usually there's a better way.

I got the impression that some of you misunderstand how that spell works.

- The Duration is Permanent until discharged, so I think that you could cast other spells without losing your remaining attacks. That's a bonus for the spell, as normal touch spells can't be held when you cast another spell
- The total number of attacks you can do with one casting of that spell is equal to your level. So you'll be able to make 20 attacks at level 20. That's nice if you have to be thrifty with your spells.
- You have to make a melee touch attack to affekt an enemy, which can get you into danger. Although that can be circumvented by a number of ways, it's a disadvantage to, say, fireball, which hits all the time (except when the enemy has the evasion class ability), and you don't have to move to close to attack.
- Every touch attack counts against your normal limit of attacks per round. So you can usually only make 1 or 2 attacks (or three with haste) in a round (although a multiclassed character, or one that uses tensers transformation, could nock it up to 4 + haste). If you have enough spells left, you'd be better off casting one (or two, with haste) per round, dealing much more damage in the same time.
- The daze effect is quite nice, though it won't stack. So, if you hit him three times in a round, and roll 1,2,3, he won't be dazed for 6 rounds. Of course, you can hit him in the next round, without fear of repraisal, or you could hit other enemies.

 

[Happiest_Sadist]

For everyone who is complaining about the save, allow me to point out other spells with fortitude saves that can take people out of comabat as effectivly as BSS.

Ray of Enfeeblement 1st level, hit a couple of these rays for long lasting paralyisis. Even one puts the hurt down.

Blindness 2nd level, being blind takes you out of the combat no attack roll.

Polymorph Other 4th level, Fish.

Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone 6th level, nuf said.

Finger of Death, 7th level

So if you're worried about the save gettingpeople, I awnser you're already in trouble if you can't make fortitude saves.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

The difference between all of these and brutal seething surge, however, is that these are good for one opponent. Brutal Seething Surge is good against 1 opponent/level. And Brutal Seething Surge deals damage to boot. So, it's not really a reasonable comparison. Better comparisons are:

Tasha's Hideous Laughter (2nd level) ranged daze effect
Shocking Grasp (1st level) touch attack damage
Hold Person (3rd level) 3rd level incapacitation benchmark spell
Halt Undead (3rd level) 3rd level limited targets incapacitation benchmark spell
Flame Arrow (3rd level) 3rd level touch attack damage example
Ghoul Touch (2nd level) touch attack paralysis

For everyone who is complaining about the save, allow me to point out other spells with fortitude saves that can take people out of comabat as effectivly as BSS.

Ray of Enfeeblement 1st level, hit a couple of these rays for long lasting paralyisis. Even one puts the hurt down.

Blindness 2nd level, being blind takes you out of the combat no attack roll.

Polymorph Other 4th level, Fish.

Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone 6th level, nuf said.

Finger of Death, 7th level

So if you're worried about the save gettingpeople, I awnser you're already in trouble if you can't make fortitude saves.

 

[Jeremy]

The difference between all of these and brutal seething surge, however, is that these are good for one opponent. Brutal Seething Surge is good against 1 opponent/level. And Brutal Seething Surge deals damage to boot. So, it's not really a reasonable comparison. Better comparisons are:

That statement could be misleading. It makes it sound like BSS affects 15 people per round (1 opponent/level). Disintegrate can be cast two or even three times per round (with a metamagic rod) for save or outright death and it does damage too. <shrugs>

I really think that at this level the damage is so pitiful that it shouldn't really be a factor in the balance of the spell. Or at least a large one. Both your examples and HS's before are good. They both point out that there are plenty of spells available at 15th level that can cause multiple saves per round or render you effectively out of commission for a few rounds. Better than dominates or well worded suggestions vs. evil targets. Those can not only take a baddie out of commision, but also add a temporary deadly ally.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Actually, I think my examples point to the spell being overpowered for its level.

Ghoul touch is a second level spell. It can paralyze one opponent with a touch attack and a failed fort save. It also gives a penalty to everyone in the area (including the caster since he has to make a touch attack) on a failed save.

Tasha's Hideous laughter is also a 2nd level spell. At range, it effectively dazes an opponent for 1-3 rounds. It is also language dependant and has penalties against many creature types.

Hold Person is a third level (wizard) spell that paralyzes a single target at range on a failed will save.

Flame Arrow and Vampiric touch are good examples of the kind of damage that a third level touch attack spell should do. (4d6/4 levels or 1d6/2 levels). Both have other effects as well (alternate version for flame arrow and temporary hit points for vampiric touch).

Comparing these, Brutal Seething surge is in line with the damage caused by vampiric touch (1d8+1/level is similar to 1d6/2 levels) but is usable multiple times. That's fairly reasonable since Vampiric touch grants temporary hit points and Brutal Seething Surge doesn't.

Similarly, Brutal Seething surge is somewhat weaker than hold person since it's touch range, causes daze instead of paralyisis, and doesn't last as long. OTOH, Brutal Seething Surge is also usable multiple times and also deals damage.

At high levels, the equation changes somewhat since unlike most spells, Brutal Seething Surge doesn't have a damage cap. Consequently, it will be doing more damage than Vampiric Touch. Brutal Seething Surge will also be useable for the duration of most combats. (It would be a truly vicious spell for a fighter/wizard--by 15th level, he could have two normal touch attacks per round plus an off hand attack for 1d8+12 (as much as a fighter with weapon specialization, a 20 strength, and a +5 weapon). Plus, since they're touch attacks, he could power attack to add even more damage). Personally, I think the spell would be more in line with the power level of other spells if it were placed at 4th level and the number of attacks were capped at 5 or 10.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Is there errata on Spectral Hand that keeps it from attacking more than once a round?

 

[KarinsDad]

Is there errata on Spectral Hand that keeps it from attacking more than once a round?

No.

Why would you need it?

Spectral Hand is limited to touch attacks. Touch attacks are like any other attack which are limited by BAB and the number of actions per round (i.e. Haste) with the exception of the round in which they are cast.