D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Flamestrike]

While I don't disagree with that at high levels, there are 2 caveats:
- A single riposte does ~15 damage on hit while a crit roll of 19 adds ~7; you need at least 20 attack rolls per SD (even dropping hit rate to 50%).

At fifth level a champion fighter is getting 2.5 attacks per round. (The extra half an attack comes from two weapon fighting, action surge, pole arm mastery, great weapon masters bonus action attack and attacks of opportunity). He breaks even at 40 rounds. At 11th level, he's getting 3.5 attacks per round. He breaks even at 30 rounds.

Those numbers are much better as a half orc. They are also dramatically better if the champion has a reliable source of advantage (a critical hit happens on an attack with advantage and a 19 to 20 crit range about 20% of the time).

- You will run out of health within ~40 rounds of combat, and ~20 rounds the following weeks (very conservative, getting hit 8 times for 5 damage each doesn't take that long).

Not when you implement the healing surge system to go with gritty realism. Also healing potions are a thing. As is the cure wounds spell. And at 18th level this doesn't bother the champion at all.

 

[dco]

The champion goes up with lvls, the battlemaster starts very strong but later the most remarkable improvement are more and better dice.

The champion can be more versatile with one more fighting style, for damage he depends more on gaining attacks and advantage, the last one improves the critical chances a lot, 19% at lvl 3 and 27.5% at lvl 15. A wolf totem barbarian, a monk stunning enemies, someone who leaves the enemies prone, etc are the best friends.

Remarkable athlete is one of the best class features, at lvl7 you get +2 proficiency bonus to all STR/DEX/CON ability checks without proficiency. A character with proficiency would only have +1 advantage, +2 at lvl 9, +3 at lvl 17, a fighter has only 4 skills and the racial skills, this gives the fighter a lot of skill versatility. Better, it also applies to tools and pure STR, DEX and CON checks, the champion will act sooner, will be better when he has to push or hold something, will have better chances to break free of bonds, to not sleep at guards, etc, etc.

I think the champions gets comparable at lvl 7, at lvl 10 a fighting style vs d10, at lvl 15 criticals with 18 against another die, lvl 18 regeneration against d12. Personally I prefer the Champion beyond lvl 7, I would multiclass the Battlemaster beyond lvl 11 if the GM allowed multiclassing.

 

[Spookykid]

let champions use their proficiency bonus for attack or defense, determined when they take their first action in combat

 

[Tony Vargas]

At fifth level a champion fighter is getting 2.5 attacks per round. He breaks even at 40 rounds. At 11th level, he's getting 3.5 attacks per round. He breaks even at 30 rounds.

In the standard 6-8 encounter day, you would have to assume 5-round combats to have days in the 30-40 round range.
But, to balance, does he need to break even, or surpass for a little while, to make up for being behind, earlier?

The champion goes up with lvls, the battlemaster starts very strong but later the most remarkable improvement are more and better dice.

The BM is screwed at high levels because it picks it's best maneuvers at 3rd, and it's diminishing returns from there on. That's a bad thing, too. The BM could do with some level-gated 'high level' maneuvers.

 

[Flamestrike]

In the standard 6-8 encounter day, you would have to assume 5-round combats to have days in the 30-40 round range.
But, to balance, does he need to break even, or surpass for a little while, to make up for being behind, earlier?

There are other variables. Half orc for one. A weapon that deals extra damage dice on a crit is another. A ready source of advantage triggering those crits on 20 percent of your swings. And so on.

And (again assuming the 30-40 round adventuring day) he is slightly ahead from 11th level when his attacks per round increase up to 3.5 on average (closer to 5 with polearm master).

From there his crit range increases again.

Of course there are a ton of variables with the battlemaster as well (precise strike + gwm etc).

A solid argument can be made for the 19-20 crit range on a half orc great axe wielding barbarian (Fighter 3/ Barbarian 17). You have reckless attack and 4 extra d12 on a critical hit, so every swing you make has a 20 percent change of critting, dealing 6d12 damage (re-rolling those 1's and 2's). You should see a Crit almost every other round.

It really boils down to a play style preference thing though for mine. One requires more thought. The other is more point and shoot, and rewards luck.

 

[Tony Vargas]

In the standard 6-8 encounter day, you would have to assume 5-round combats to have days in the 30-40 round range.
But, to balance, does he need to break even, or surpass for a little while, to make up for being behind, earlier?

There are other variables.

Sure. But what I was curious about was the idea of 'breaking even' in this context. If you "break even" on round 30, are you even for the day, or just starting to recoup your losses from the first 29 rounds?

And (again assuming the 30-40 round adventuring day) he is slightly ahead from 11th level when his attacks per round increase up to 3.5 on average (closer to 5 with polearm master).

Slightly ahead as of round 30? Or slightly ahead overall when days are 30-40 rounds? Or slightly ahead at those levels, after being behind at the lower levels?

It really boils down to a play style preference thing though for mine. One requires more thought. The other is more point and shoot, and rewards luck.

Sure, the playstyles they're aimed at are obvious enough. The Champion is the 'simple fighter' and a nostalgic callback to the classic version. The BM is the 'complex fighter' and the only PH option available cover the 4e martial classes. Ironically, the Champion is also more option-rich than the classic fighter, and the BM far less so than even the simplest 4e-PH martial class (the archer build of the PH1-only Ranger). So they're rather more like compromises those styles are asked to make in order to participate in 5e.

(Hmm.... that sounds worse than I meant it to...)

 

[Alexemplar]

Not to pick on the OP because this isn't directed at him, but at these types of threads in general.

What does the champion need buffing on? Absolutely nothing. We seem to have this attitude that every class presented needs to appeal to us personally, and if it doesn't, then it's broken, or weak, or whatever. That attitude is not only flawed, but is harmful to the game itself. There is a very real reason why the champion is like it is, and changing it because *I* feel it doesn't do enough ends up alienating those people who do like it like it is because I'm taking away their options.

So play the classes you want, and stop feeling like you need to change every other class to fit your desires because chances are, it appeals to other people just fine the way it is. The game certainly isn't catered to my desires, so why I would feel it necessarily say anything that doesn't fit my desires is somehow broken is beyond me.

I am kind of miffed that there's no "simple caster class". Even the Warlock is relatively complicated as it still has to deal with the vancian casting system and spell slots on top of its invocations.

I'd totally love a class with a straightforward energy blast or two and no more than a handful of magic tricks/auras/abilities in plain worded language. Like the original 3e Warlock or the Dragon Shaman. Something where a player (especially a new one) doesn't feel like they need to flip through a dozen or so pages/cards in order to decide what they want to do for their turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I am kind of miffed that there's no "simple caster class".

There rarely has been anything remotely like that, before, and 5e does seem intent of filling in the classic stuff, first.

I'd totally love a class with a straightforward energy blast or two and no more than a handful of magic tricks/auras/abilities in plain worded language. Like the original 3e Warlock or the Dragon Shaman. Something where a player (especially a new one) doesn't feel like they need to flip through a dozen or so pages/cards in order to decide what they want to do for their turn.

The Elemental Sorcerer in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos was a very simple take on a blaster caster, very nearly as simplistic and DPR-grindy as an Essentials Slayer or 5e Champion. Nearly - it's encounter (short rest) power-up could go AE, for instance, where the Slayer's was just single-target.

 

[bid]

Not when you implement the healing surge system to go with gritty realism. Also healing potions are a thing. As is the cure wounds spell. And at 18th level this doesn't bother the champion at all.

Yep, you need house rules to help avoid short rests.

I was hoping you wouldn't bring the pocket cleric into the "all day long" fantasy. A Cleric 5th using all his 1st/2nd slots would heal 10d8+28 per week, another ~30 rounds for the week. At which point you should average the DPR of both characters to be fair.


So, after ~40 rounds of combat on the first day of week, you need to pull out expendables, and only then can you match up. On the second day of the week, you can repeat that. On the 3rd day... your casters are out of spell slots but you can still match the BM with expendables. On the 4th day... the party goes back home.

As opposed to a sustained ~10 rounds of combat per day, which your party could keep up a month.

 

[bid]

Slightly ahead as of round 30? Or slightly ahead overall when days are 30-40 rounds? Or slightly ahead at those levels, after being behind at the lower levels?

Overall damage for the day is equivalent. A shorter day is better for BM, a longer one better for champion.

This also assumes you randomly choose when to use your 4 SD, without taking advantage of the situation.