D&D 5E Building a better Druid

[TheCosmicKid]

In the Norse worldview, the phenomenon of shapechange encompasses various aspects.

The Norse word Ham·r means ‘skin’ (including a pelt, hide, leather or fur), and by extension means the ‘shape’ of a creature that is in this skin.

In the context of Norse animism, this ‘shape’ is a technical term for the shape of a ‘mind’ (hugr), the mental experience of a form, an ‘identity’.

The person that is ‘shape powerful’ (Ham·rammr) has a strong mind that is able to achieve the following feats (in increasing order of difficulty).
• ‘Going of a Berserkr’ (Berserks·gangr), trancing into the mental identity of an animal, to exhibit savagery and strength.
• ‘Shape traveling’ (Ham·farir), sending ones mind out-of-body to manifest elsewhere in such a savage animal form.
• The mind is so strong the projected mental shape actually transmogrifies the physical body into the animal form.

Can you cite textual or archeological evidence to back up these claims? Is this hierarchy of shape-shifting powers detailed anywhere in a primary source, or is it speculative? In particular, is there any demonstrable connection between berserksgang and being hamramr? Yes, obviously the animal imagery associated with berserksgang is suggestive. But animal imagery is ubiquitous in every aspect of every human culture. He was called Richard the Lionheart, but we don't tend to interpret that as meaning he possessed shamanic lion powers. Is it possible that berserksgang was more along those lines -- elite warriors adopting a badass beastie as a symbol -- than it was an allegedly supernatural ability?

And, even setting all that aside, don't the actual descriptions of berserksgang really, really look like barbarian rage, almost as if the class feature was directly based on them? From your perspective, might it not make more sense to just attribute this power -- shamanic or otherwise -- to the barbarian class rather than assert that berserkers ought to be druids?

 

[Xeviat]

Doing a level by level comparison between the Cleric and Druid makes the Druid look lacking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Yaarel]

Can you cite textual or archeological evidence to back up these claims? Is this hierarchy of shape-shifting powers detailed anywhere in a primary source, or is it speculative? In particular, is there any demonstrable connection between berserksgang and being hamramr?

For example in Egils·saga Skalla·Gríms·sonar,

Kveldúlfr and his crew of vikings are called ‘shape-powerful’, a term that usually means either shapeprojecting or shapeshifting. But he himself is specifically said to be ‘going-berserkr’. During this particular attack, he is still wielding a battleaxe with excessive force while berserkr. So, since he still has human hands, it is clear enough his physical body didnt transmogrify into the shape of wolf. This is a case of mentally exhibiting the identity of a wolf.

As such, ‘going-berserkr’ is a subset of being ‘shape-powerful’, or in any case they part of the same concept within the Norse worldview.

Note, Kveldúlfr is a nickname that literally means ‘evening wolf’. He got this nickname because he was known for being ‘hamrammr’. The context is ambiguous, but apparently he was known to often take on a wolf form after the sun set, by outofbody projection or perhaps by bodily shapeshifting. Perhaps these episodes were also only transformations of personality. But whatever its exact effect, it is explicitly identified as ‘shape-powerful’.

And, even setting all that aside, don't the actual descriptions of berserksgang really, really look like barbarian rage.

Noting the D&D fantasy (mis)use of terms, a reallife ‘barbarian’ has little to do with the D&D Barbarian class. The D&D Barbarian class is designed, at least partially, with the Norse descriptions of the Berserkr in mind. In 4e, it was a ‘Primal’ magic class because it was shamanic.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Shapechanging may have been a druid thing, but WoW turned it into the druid thing.

Meh, WoW is more popular and profitable than D&D by orders of magnitude, but it's still WoW ripp'n off D&D, not the other way around.

Of all the D&D druids, only the 4E version was actually defined by wild shape.

It was a pretty defining feature in 1e, it worked like the 9th level Shapechange spell, and it meant that druids were 'shape-shifters' and able to return to their natural form when polymorphed, pretty amazing stuff. In 2e a Druid that got shapechange from very low level was also introduced, and it was a primary tactic in 3.5 when Natural Spell broke it all to heck - all before the WoW phenom.

The PH2 Druid was post-WoW, but it wasn't primarily a shape-changer, it was neatly split between 'beast form' and implement invocations, able to emphasize one or the other either in build or in play. Where a WoW druid might be shapechanged all through a battle, a 4e Druid would shift between beast and humanoid forms to use different invocations, one that always or never wildshaped would be cheating himself.

So if I see a game where the "druid" is first and foremost the guy who can turn into a bear, I'm going to call it derivative of WoW before I call it derivative of D&D.

WoW is derivative of D&D.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

For example in Egils·saga Skalla·Gríms·sonar,

Kveldúlfr and his crew of vikings are called ‘shape-powerful’, a term that usually means either shapeprojecting or shapeshifting. But he himself is specifically said to be ‘going-berserkr’. During this particular attack, he is still wielding a battleaxe with excessive force while berserkr. So, since he still has human hands, it is clear enough his physical body didnt transmogrify into the shape of wolf. This is a case of mentally exhibiting the identity of a wolf.

As such, ‘going-berserkr’ is a subset of being ‘shape-powerful’, or in any case they part of the same concept within the Norse worldview.

Note, Kveldúlfr is a nickname that literally means ‘evening wolf’. He got this nickname because he was known for being ‘hamrammr’. The context is ambiguous, but apparently he was known to often take on a wolf form after the sun set, by outofbody projection or perhaps by bodily shapeshifting. Perhaps these episodes were also only transformations of personality. But whatever its exact effect, it is explicitly identified as ‘shape-powerful’.

Thank you for the citation. You're right that the terms "shape-strong" and "berserk" occur in close proximity there. However, I think a close reading shows that they are actually being distinguished rather than equated.

First, a quibble on the matter of Kveldúlf's name: his given name is "Úlf", only the "Kveld" part is the nickname, and the saga states it's because "he was an evening sleeper". This doesn't really matter, because he is unambiguously described as "hamrammur", but given how common a name "Úlf" is, it seems like a stretch to cite it as evidence here.

Now, berserkers. The saga does not call Kveldúlf a berserker or say he enters berserksgang. In Chapter 1, in which his name is explained and he is called "hamrammur", Kveldúlf's comrade Kári is stated to be a berserker -- but Kveldúlf himself is not. This wording seems very unlikely if Kveldúlf is supposed to be a berserker. You don't say "Bob had a friend who was a doctor" if Bob is also a doctor.

Then in Chapter 27, it gets really close. "It is said that those men who are hamrammir, or those who have the berserksgang upon them, that [they get tired]. So it was with Kveldúlf, that when the hamremmin went from him, [he got tired]." If these sentences stood on their own, I would be tempted to interpret "or those who have the berserksgang" as a gloss of "those men who are hamrammir" and concede this point to you. But having already seen the distinction between Kveldúlf and Kári, I'm not sure they're supposed to be read that way. An alternative reading presents itself: "those men who are hamrammir" and "those who have the berserksgang" are two different groups of people whom the text is comparing. "It is said of those who are in medical school, or those who are in law school, that they study too hard." Note, again, that when the saga turns back to Kveldúlf in particular, it uses the term "hamrammin" and does not call him a berserker.

Look, cards on the table here: my personal estimate is that you're probably close to the mark on the significance of berserkers. I don't think they were shamans per se -- they don't show any sign of fulfilling a spiritual social function in these sagas, and seem strictly to be elite warriors -- but with all the animal motifs surrounding them and the attribution of abilities which border on the supernatural, I'd be surprised if the concept didn't have some basis in an earlier animal-magic tradition. And a connection to this other animal-magic tradition of hamramm does seem like an eminently reasonable speculation. But it is still speculation. And when you are speculating, that is when it is most important to read the primary texts carefully and skeptically, to make sure you don't fall into confirmation bias. We are talking about an ancient culture which, for all its modern popularity, is still in many ways mysterious to us. On the religious and spiritual beliefs of the Norse, we have surprisingly few hard facts (and whatever those facts were, they doubtlessly varied over the hundreds of years and thousands of miles across which the Norse ranged). So when you state hypotheses on the subject, even plausible ones like berserkers being related to animal magic, you need to do so with appropriate caution. It is highly misleading for you to flatly declare concepts and definitions and taxonomies as if they were absolute truth straight out of some nonexistent pagan catechism.

The D&D Barbarian class is designed, at least partially, with the Norse descriptions of the Berserkr in mind.

And that's really the extent of my point. So why try to shoehorn berserkers into the druid class?

 

[Yaarel]

[MENTION=6683613]TheCosmicKid[/MENTION]

I appreciate your comment. I never noticed that when the texts use the term ‘going-berserkr’, it means a psychological change only, not a bodily one. When you mentioned it, I doublechecked the texts, it seems to me that that is correct.

It seems the term ‘shape-powerful’ is the broadest, most encompassing concept, and it includes ‘berserkr’. But ‘Berserkr’ itself is a distinctive phenomenon.

 

[Yaarel]

And that's really the extent of my point. So why try to shoehorn berserkers into the druid class?

Just saying, ‘going-Berserkr’ is a shamanic tradition. So it is appropriate for the D&D Druid class, which is shamanic and for D&D, primal. But there can be more than one primal class.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

It seems the term ‘shape-powerful’ is the broadest, most encompassing concept, and it includes ‘berserkr’.

I do not see any firm evidence that 'shape-powerful' encompasses 'berserk'. Maybe it does. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe Snorri thinks it does but is wrong. Maybe Snorri thinks it doesn't but is wrong. Maybe it does in Götaland but not in the Orkneys. Maybe it does in the 8th Century but not in the 11th Century. Maybe it's a matter on which even contemporaneous Norse held different opinions.