Building a thiefy warlock? Or a magey rogue?

Roseweave

Explorer
Our next campaign will be starting in a few months and I really want to play some kind of arcane rogue. This was a popular archetype in older eds but doesn't seem well supported. A hybrid Rogue/Warlock might work, or maybe the Rogue with a Binder multiclass(the powers it gives are pretty cool). I think something like a Hexblade would be cool, as I'd like to be Meleé oriented as much as ranged(if not more so).

Should I just make a Warlock with high dex and a Rogue multiclass? It seems like Dex isn't useful for Warlocks, even though thematically they go with sneakiness.
 
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MwaO

Adventurer
It kind of depends on how powerful you want to go. Rogues have a reasonable use for Cha as a secondary stat, Sorcerer is really good, Flame Spiral is Flame Spiral and Demonskin Adept is one of the top 5 or so Paragon Paths out there.

One of the things I've been playing with lately is a 'Spin Bard' who is a Half-Elf Dex/Cha Bard who massively MCs Rogue, Assassin, and Monk and on top of it, picks up Twin Strike as the Dilettante(and uses Cha with it). Yeah, not exactly optimal in one sense, but potentially fun and unusual and ends up with a +1d6+1d8+2d6+2+Cha bonus to one attack per encounter which eventually turns into 1d6+6+3d8+5d6+2+Cha which is about 50 damage or so.
 

Roseweave

Explorer
That sounds fun but a bit complicated and too many levels to be effective. Don't want to play a character that's Bard at first level, as that's the same as in my last game.

I might consider Monk instead of Rogue since it's dex base and potentially gives me sneaky stuff.

Otherwise I was thinking a Hybrid Rogue | Warlock with Pact Dagger.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
Monk's a lot of fun and much more effective than it is given credit for. Centered Breath Elves or Humans in particular who happen to have a 12 Con and some way of adding to a damage bonus makes them really nasty. As an example, Sarifal Feywarden who hits someone with Lion's Den and a Frost Dagger - he does 1d6+5+other bonuses+1+5+Wis+2 with an at-will for the 1st two rounds.

In general, I think it is a bad idea to hybrid Striker|Striker unless you know exactly what you want out of it from mechanics. Better to MC and gain all the big benefits of a class. So Rogue, as an example, can MC Binder and still get +1 to hit, CA if they go first, etc... But what's going on with Rogue is why Rogue|Sorcerer tends to work better than Rogue|Warlock - every dagger is by definition an implement...
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
Yeah, in 4e, the magical sneak/sneaky mage isn't really that much...
I seem to remember feats that combine Eladrin teleport with picking enemies' pockets...
Of the regular warlocks, I'd go with Fey. Maybe Gnome would be handy race...
Or the 1/2Elf thief that both Dilletante and multi-classes into warlock. Oh, with the dilletante power, take Eldrich Strike.
Dex isn't that big for warlocks--just get a 13 do that you can eventually take dual-implement Spellcaster.
Or, instead of starting with rogue, start with the essentials thief...
 

The thing is, in 4e 'thief' isn't so much of a thing. Anyone can pick up Stealth, Thievery, and maybe Acrobatics/Athletics, etc and do the old 'thief skills' to whatever degree they feel like burning feats and utility power slots for (and you can spice it up with Alchemy, Ritual Caster/Martial Practices, various items, PP, etc as much as you want to play it up). Rogues obviously make GOOD thieves, but its not really an exclusive niche like in other editions.

The point is, you can simply go with a wand wizard build and toss a bit of resources at the above and be a 'mystical thief', albeit one that probably doesn't do the stabby part. You could certainly do the same as a CHA/DEX Sorc and use the feat tricks to turn your powers into attacks with a dagger too. There's just no need to be part rogue, the class has stuff that CAN be great for a thief, but you can get the core of it other ways.
 

I happen to have this character in my Builder so here you go: Hybrid Rogue/Sorcerer MC Bard PP Daring Blade

[sblock=Hybrid Rogue/Sorcerer MC Bard PP Daring Blade]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Dellarocca2, level 18
Human, Rogue/Sorcerer, Daring Blade
Hybrid Talent Option: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer Option: Storm Soul
Sorcerous Power Option: Sorcerous Power Dexterity
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Light blade)
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Wand)
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Background Benefit: Windrise Ports (Endurance)
Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)
Theme: Noble

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 14, DEX 22, INT 9, WIS 11, CHA 22

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 15, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 17


AC: 31 Fort: 31 Ref: 35 Will: 35
HP: 111 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +26, Athletics +20, Bluff +20, Diplomacy +22, Insight +16, Perception +16, Streetwise +20

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +8, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +11, Heal +9, History +8, Intimidate +15, Nature +9, Religion +8, Stealth +15, Thievery +15

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Utility: Noble Presence
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Riposte Strike
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Breath
Sorcerer Utility 2: Spatial Trip
Wizard Attack 3: Shock Sphere
Sorcerer Attack 3: Lightning Cuts
Rogue Attack 5: Duelist's Demand
Rogue Utility 6: Perfect Feint
Sorcerer Attack 7: Spark Form
Athletics Utility 10: Incredible Stride
Daring Blade Attack 11: Weapon Display
Daring Blade Utility 12: Defensive Posture (Daring Blade)
Bard Attack 13: Song of Storms
Rogue Attack 13: Vaulting Charge
Sorcerer Attack 15: Lightning Daggers
Insight Utility 16: Insightful Riposte
Rogue Utility 16: Slip from the Grasp
Sorcerer Attack 17: Thunderstroke
Rogue Attack 17: Tumbling Strike

FEATS
Level 1: Improved Defenses
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Armor Proficiency: Leather
Level 2: Bardic Dilettante
Level 4: Arcane Familiar
Level 6: Warborn Fury Style
Level 8: Duelist's Panache
Level 10: Resilient Focus
Level 11: Superior Will
Level 11: Lightning Soul
Level 12: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 14: Action Surge
Level 16: Skill Power
Level 18: Reserve Maneuver

ITEMS
Lightning Dagger +3 x1
Deathcut Drowmesh +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +4 x1
Amulet of Passage
Sharpshooter's Wand +3
Defensive Staff +1 x1
Crown of the Brilliant Sun x1
Bracelet of the Radiant Storm x1
Hero's Gauntlets (paragon tier) x1
Belt of Vim (paragon tier) x1
Boots of Eagerness x1
Elven Chain Shirt (heroic tier)
Strongheart Tattoo (paragon tier) x1
Eberron Shard of Lightning (paragon tier)
Ring of Borrowed Spells x1
====== End ======[/sblock]

Not a powerhouse by any means, but fun. (And yes: I was granted a few bonus feats by the DM, the usual feat tax stuff.)

At Heroic tier he was pretty tough to play, fragile due to lacking full Rogue defensive mojo, but capable of busting out some fairly effective damage. Also the need to keep up Dex & Cha, with only a single +2 (Human) was tough.

Big change at Paragon tier with the Daring Blade PP which allows Cha for all martial melee weapon attacks. An, uh, actually I should've retrained this guy some more to emphasize Cha over Dex, can't remember why I didn't. What can I say: more of a fun character than an optimized one.

Oh hey, here he is at 8th level too.

[sblock=8th level]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Michel Dellarocca, level 8
Human, Rogue/Sorcerer
Hybrid Talent Option: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer Option: Storm Soul
Sorcerous Power Option: Sorcerous Power Dexterity
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Light blade)
Versatile Expertise Option: Versatile Expertise (Staff)
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Background Benefit: Windrise Ports (Athletics)
Windrise Ports (Windrise Ports Benefit)
Theme: Noble

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 18

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 16


AC: 22 Fort: 21 Ref: 24 Will: 24
HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +19, Arcana +8, Athletics +15, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Perception +10, Streetwise +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +6, Heal +5, History +3, Insight +5, Intimidate +8, Nature +5, Religion +3, Stealth +10, Thievery +8

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Noble Utility: Noble Presence
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Rogue Attack 1: Sly Flourish
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Strike
Rogue Attack 1: Opening Move
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Breath
Sorcerer Utility 2: Spatial Trip
Sorcerer Attack 3: Lightning Cuts
Rogue Attack 5: Duelist's Demand
Rogue Utility 6: Perfect Feint
Acrobatics Utility 6: Timely Dodge
Sorcerer Attack 7: Spark Form

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Versatile Expertise
Level 2: Armor Proficiency: Leather
Level 4: Action Surge
Level 6: Duelist's Panache
Level 6: Bardic Dilettante
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 8: Skill Power

ITEMS
Defensive Staff +1 x1
Leather Armor of Cleansing +2 x1
Amulet of Passage +2 x1
Sandals of Precise Stepping x1
Gloves of Grace x1
Counterstrike Guards x1
Diamond Cincture x1
Lightning Dagger +2 x1
Fey-Blessed Circlet x1
====== End ======[/sblock]
 

MwaO

Adventurer
You could certainly do the same as a CHA/DEX Sorc and use the feat tricks to turn your powers into attacks with a dagger too. There's just no need to be part rogue, the class has stuff that CAN be great for a thief, but you can get the core of it other ways.

Right. And MC'ing Rogue or Assassin or Monk a couple of times can get you Thievery and Stealth while generally being useful. Monk's ability to power swap for Quicksilver Motion in particular is awesome.
 

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