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Building a thiefy warlock? Or a magey rogue?


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Aren't Hybrids kinda underpowered tho?

Also the builder I'm using is letting me MC Binder as Warlock.

No, hybrids are not, as a general blanket statement, kinda underpowered. Certain classes are almost universally an asset if you hybrid into them. Swordmage for instance is a very powerful hybrid choice for many characters for various tactical reasons. Warlock is another class that is frequently used (the eyebite paladin being a kind of classic there). Fighter, warlord, wizard, really most of the classes, can be profitably combined with SOMETHING. Its true, there are many terrible hybrid choices, and combinatorics being what it is they numerically vastly outnumber the really good choices. However, most of them are pretty obviously bad and can be avoided. If you pick two classes with stat synergy, you're probably going to be OK. Hybrids are certainly tricky and rely on somewhat of an advanced understanding of how various things work together in 4e, but they're not inherently gimpy, rather the contrary, some of them are nastier than any single class.
 

Roseweave

Explorer
Trying a Gloom Pact|Sorcerer Hybrid - mostly pretty good but the lack of skills is really annoying. Without being able to pick Wild Talent it's not very interesting, and it's either that or have skills. Having no perception at level 1 is a bit what.
 

Roseweave

Explorer
I feel like maybe going full warlock with a Gloom Pact Multiclass feat set might work best... though I feel Multiclassing IS underpowered considering you have to sacrifice so many feats and/or a paragon path.
 

Trying a Gloom Pact|Sorcerer Hybrid - mostly pretty good but the lack of skills is really annoying. Without being able to pick Wild Talent it's not very interesting, and it's either that or have skills. Having no perception at level 1 is a bit what.

Heh, I kinda like Mind Shadows, as an artillery hoser. Personally I'd virtually forget about the utility powers, they're going to trigger too seldom to really matter, though I guess if you're a heavy AoE blaster Sorc type then you may well pick off a lot of minions and stragglers. In that case I kinda like the idea of getting a little free invisibility. Anyone laying out a lot of AoE hurt probably IS a prime target!
 

I feel like maybe going full warlock with a Gloom Pact Multiclass feat set might work best... though I feel Multiclassing IS underpowered considering you have to sacrifice so many feats and/or a paragon path.

MCing in general is definitely pretty weak, but of course the initial MC feat is usually a very nice deal. MC Binder seems to fall into that category, you get more than with most feats. The power swap feats are generally pretty anemic, though there can be exceptions now and then. Really if you're going to start power swapping then you might as well hybrid, that's sort of the long and short of it. Edge cases pretty much involve bards that are half-elves, not surprisingly.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
I feel like maybe going full warlock with a Gloom Pact Multiclass feat set might work best... though I feel Multiclassing IS underpowered considering you have to sacrifice so many feats and/or a paragon path.

Regardless of whether or not your builder lets you do it, that's not a legal option. You can't MC into a class that's a sub-class of your class. Multiclassing is not underpowered at all if you make good power selections - I can make Vampire or Binder into a build that many tables are going to have a lot of problems with for being overpowered and too good.

In general, hybrids are about 4 things:
Make sure you have 18 primary stats(you can break this rule, but it helps to know exactly why you're breaking it)
Fix AC. Make sure you have a role appropriate AC - 18 for Defenders, 16 for everyone else, +1 in many cases for 'tough', -1 in very limited cases. If it doesn't happen naturally, spend the hybrid talent feat to fix it. Unarmored Agility might be the answer, so might be wielding a +1 Aversion Staff in the off hand if Staff is an implement.
Know your role. Defender? Leader? Striker? Controller? Some weird mix?
Power selection. If you're good at picking powers for optimization, you'll do well here - in fact, it probably will more than make up for anything wrong in general with the build - a Sorcerer|Wizard might be a very odd build, but Flame Spiral+Prismatic Burst+Wizard Dailies+Demonskin Adept ought to compensate for a lot. If you're bad at it, it isn't a good choice. Poachable Powers
 

Roseweave

Explorer
The one exception for me has been with Resourceful Magician, with my current Bard. It's been really fantastic. I get Wizard powers but Bard Healing and class features. The Bard Utilities are better on average, too.
 

MwaO

Adventurer
MCing in general is definitely pretty weak, but of course the initial MC feat is usually a very nice deal. MC Binder seems to fall into that category, you get more than with most feats. The power swap feats are generally pretty anemic, though there can be exceptions now and then. Really if you're going to start power swapping then you might as well hybrid, that's sort of the long and short of it. Edge cases pretty much involve bards that are half-elves, not surprisingly.

Power swapping is not anemic. If anything, it is overpowered, provided you are making swaps for powers that are better than what you'd typically get from your class. And almost every class has a power or two that has a significant edge over any other class 3rd best choice.
 

Power swapping is not anemic. If anything, it is overpowered, provided you are making swaps for powers that are better than what you'd typically get from your class. And almost every class has a power or two that has a significant edge over any other class 3rd best choice.

That CAN be true, but generally speaking you can just pick the 2nd or 1st best power choice of your own class. There are specific cases where a given class, or at least some builds, have weak options at a given level. In that case its not such a bad deal, but there are plenty of classes where that's unlikely.

Truthfully, MCing was a better deal in the PHB era of 2008. You generally only had a very limited set of really useful feats, so there were slots to burn for most characters. MANY classes had a limited enough set of choices in that book so that pretty much any martial character could mine something good out of another martial class, and etc. Paladins were virtually REQUIRED to MC, given the anemic nature of their choices, and Warlocks weren't always too far behind in certain builds. STR clerics as well, etc.

Nowadays you could make good mileage from 40 feat slots, so every swap feat is a feat lost in return for merely adding to the already vast list of powers you can grab at a given level. Yes, there are a few powers that, if your build is right, just stand out far above the ordinary and can make it worth while. There are a few of the later classes that got really limited support, like Vampire in particular, that can get some real advantages from it. Overall, MCing is a sort of game designer's paradox. It is always both too good and not good enough.
 

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