Bull rush as part of a charge

[irdeggman]

pg 155 of the PHB

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single
melee attack. Since you can use the momentum of the charge in
your favor, you get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. Since a charge is a
bit reckless, you also take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of
your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made
to bull rush or overrun an opponent (see Bull Rush, above, and
Overrun, below).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough
base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to
make one attack during a charge.

Since the bull rush note is a subset of the paragraph entitled "Attacking on a Charge" it would appear that the bull rush is indeed a substitute for the normal attack, as is overrun.

Now using the rules logic of Hyp - that is you move on the charge until you threaten, make your attack (from the charge) and then continue into the foe's square. . .

Hmm something is wrong here since you stop your movement at the point of making the attack and it would require an extra move to move into your foe's square (which is required for a bull rush). But then again I could be misinterpreting his post and reading that he is saying you can move,attack, continue move and bull rush (but somehow I don't think that is likely, I just think his post wasn't as clear as he normally is).

Based on rules of movement and attacks, you can't take an attack as part of a charge and still perform a bull rush (without some special feat or class ability that may exist).

 

[Deset Gled]

Hmm something is wrong here since you stop your movement at the point of making the attack and it would require an extra move to move into your foe's square (which is required for a bull rush).

I think the important part here is that the movement into the targets square is techincally not considered movement, it's considered part of the bull rush (the same goes for the movement into an opponents square that is required for a grapple).

I don't have a rules cite for this, but if it weren't true you would never be able to bull rush or grapple in a round that you made a 5' step in, which just seems wrong.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now using the rules logic of Hyp - that is you move on the charge until you threaten, make your attack (from the charge) and then continue into the foe's square. . .

No, I'm saying that Bull Rush draws a distinction between the standard action Bull Rush, which has "(an attack)" as a parenthetic note, and a Bull Rush as part of a charge, which does not.

Continuing into the opponent's square to Bull Rush happens after you move to the nearest space from which you can attack the opponent, but before you actually do attack him. You don't attack him until after the Bull Rush is resolved, by which point you've finished moving... so your attack occurs after movement and not before, as required by the Charge action.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

Continuing into the opponent's square to Bull Rush happens after you move to the nearest space from which you can attack the opponent, but before you actually do attack him. You don't attack him until after the Bull Rush is resolved, by which point you've finished moving... so your attack occurs after movement and not before, as required by the Charge action.

My live DMs are going to choke on their weetbix when I throw this at them.... then again, it would probably favour large and huge monsters more..... Does this interpretation still work when using reach? (either via a weapon or natural reach)

 

[irdeggman]

No, I'm saying that Bull Rush draws a distinction between the standard action Bull Rush, which has "(an attack)" as a parenthetic note, and a Bull Rush as part of a charge, which does not.

Continuing into the opponent's square to Bull Rush happens after you move to the nearest space from which you can attack the opponent, but before you actually do attack him. You don't attack him until after the Bull Rush is resolved, by which point you've finished moving... so your attack occurs after movement and not before, as required by the Charge action.

-Hyp.

Unlike grapple (as in maintain grapple) moving into your opponents square is not a free action for bull rush. It specifically points it out as a free action under grapple but not bull rush.

The first step of a bull rush is to move into an oppent's square. This can be done as part of the standard action or as part of a charge.

If you make an attack at the end a charge your movement stops - then you would have to move into an opponent's square to perform the bull rush.

Therefore it would appear that if a character is charging, taking an attack at the end of the movement part of the charge and then moving into his opponent's square to perform the bull rush he has violated the rules of movement.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you make an attack at the end a charge your movement stops - then you would have to move into an opponent's square to perform the bull rush.

You attack after the bull rush. You bull rush while still moving; you don't attack until you've stopped moving.

You can't attack, then bull rush, because the attack happens at the end of the charge... so anything happening after that couldn't be 'part of the charge'. The bull rush has to happen before the attack.

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

Bullrushing is part of the charge action, the charge action gets you from a to b, while including the rush, then it ends. You can make one attack at the end of that charge.

Hyp is right

you dont stop moving, bull rush, then attack, you bullrush while moving (ie as part of), then stop, then attack

 

[irdeggman]

You attack after the bull rush. You bull rush while still moving; you don't attack until you've stopped moving.

You can't attack, then bull rush, because the attack happens at the end of the charge... so anything happening after that couldn't be 'part of the charge'. The bull rush has to happen before the attack.

-Hyp.

The bottom line is that in order to be able to charge with an attack and a bull rush you have to do one of two things:

1 - bull rush at end of charge (which requires moving into the foe's square) - and then attack. Which as you pointed out violates the stipulation of attack when getting to the threatened square. "First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." {pg 154 PHB}

or

2 - attack at end of charge then move into foe's square to perform bull rush. Which as i pointed out violates the rules of movement.

Therefore there is no way, barring any feat or class feature, to attack and bull rush as part ofa charge.

 

[Nail]

Therefore there is no way, barring any feat or class feature, to attack and bull rush as part ofa charge.

Can a Bull Rush be performed as part of a Charge?

 

[Nail]

Here's the SRD text for you to consult when answering the above question:

"You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). "