Can Delay slot you in between two characters acting on the same initiative count?

[Captain Trek]

As the title of the thread says, I'd like to know whether a character with a given initiative can use Delay to act in-between two characters who have the same initiative count as each other (and a lower initiative than the character who is Delaying, obviously).

You see, our group found itself in a situation recently where a monster that had rolled a very low initiative was down the end of a corridor, and we knew this particular creature to have a rather nasty Full Attack. After our ranged attackers got done softening the thing up, our melee characters (rather than advance forward far enough to attack it as they might otherwise have) moved in front of them and set themselves Ready to receive the thing's charge.

Now here's where my question comes in: Ready places you on the same initiative count as and just before the creature whose action triggers your Readied action, right? Well, given the creature's nasty Full Attack, we decided to have our ranged attackers Delay, figuring we could have our melee characters (who were acting just before the monster) Withdraw and then slot our Delaying ranged characters in to go after the melee characters but before the monster, shooting and then moving back behind the melee characters again, then rinse and repeat once this new order of melee characters, ranged characters and finally the monster was locked in.

Whilst she wasn't sure, our GM, at the time, allowed us to do this (and as we thought, it made taking the thing out VASTLY less painful than it would otherwise have been), but my question, then, is was this (for future reference) technically an allowable tactic?

 

[Vegepygmy]

As the title of the thread says, I'd like to know whether a character with a given initiative can use Delay to act in-between two characters who have the same initiative count as each other (and a lower initiative than the character who is Delaying, obviously).

Yes. "Initiative count" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the order of initiative. If Player A and Player B both get their turn on "initiative count 14," one of them still takes his turn before the other (let's assume it's Player A). So Player C simply says: "I delay until after Player A's turn," and presto--he takes his turn after Player A and before Player B (on "initiative count 14," not that we care what imaginary number applies).

Now here's where my question comes in: Ready places you on the same initiative count as and just before the creature whose action triggers your Readied action, right?

Forget about this "initiative count" thing; it's only going to confuse you. The only thing that matters is, after you take your Readied action, your new place in the initiative order is right before the creature who triggered your Readied action.

All initiative is relative (i.e., you go before someone else, or after someone else). There is no absolute initiative value (i.e., you go on "15").

Well, given the creature's nasty Full Attack, we decided to have our ranged attackers Delay, figuring we could have our melee characters (who were acting just before the monster) Withdraw and then slot our Delaying ranged characters in to go after the melee characters but before the monster, shooting and then moving back behind the melee characters again, then rinse and repeat once this new order of melee characters, ranged characters and finally the monster was locked in.

Whilst she wasn't sure, our GM, at the time, allowed us to do this (and as we thought it made taking the thing out VASTLY less painful than it would otherwise have been), but my question, then, is was this (for future reference) technically an allowable tactic?

Yep. Perfectly legal (and, in fact, good tactics).

 

[Captain Trek]

Thankyou!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

SRD on Delay Action says Yes!

 

[Water Bob]

Technically, RAW does not say "YES!"

You can lower your initiative count to the SAME count as the tied characters, and you can act just before or just after them. But the rule doesn't technically allow you to go BETWEEN them.

If you're going on 17, and each of them are going on 11, then you can also lower your count to 11.

Now, the three of you are tied.

Tied initiative is subject to a rule: SRD - Inititiave

From the SRD: If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.



Thus, you could lower your initiative number to that of the other two, but between the three of you, the above rule would apply.

In other words, you could only go between them if your total initiative modifier is less than one and greater than the other.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

From the SRD: If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

This process would occur before the actual encounter starts, therefore the 2 tied characters would have been separated and sorted into the initiate order before you took your in combat delay.

"By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act."

At this point, you insert yourself between the two.

 

[Water Bob]

This process would occur before the actual encounter starts, therefore the 2 tied characters would have been separated and sorted into the initiate order before you took your in combat delay.

[/QUOTE]

No, I don't think so. The tie breaker doesn't change the initiative count. It only reports which character should act first.

If it worked as you say, you'd run into this problem:

You roll 17 for nish.

Two of your party mates roll 11.

There's a 10 count.

And, ther's a 9 count.


If you actually change the initiative number of one of the two characters at 11 initiative, then you could feasibly have that character go on 8, having lost the ties with the 10 and 9 count characters.

Fred loses tie at 11, and becomes tied with 10. Fred loses the tie with 10, then becomes a 9. Fred also loses the tie with 9 and becomes an 8.

This is not how the rule is intended.




Instead, the round should go like this: You go on 17 and delay to 11. At 11, the GM performs the tie. All three 11's are perfomed. Then, we move to the 9 and 8.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

You roll 17 for nish.

Two of your party mates roll 11.

There's a 10 count.

And, ther's a 9 count.

I'd interpret this to have the 2 tied for second roll before combat starts, so the initiative order is figured. As a DM I like to do this in advance, keeps bookeeping smoother for me.

Then, when the two 11's dice it out, I'd conceptually (although never written) figure the winner as something like 11.5, the loser 10.5. In this way the loser would still go before the 10.

Here's the thing, once combat starts, I ignore the actual initiative number. I write on my dry erase board the order of players and monsters in a 1,2,3,4,5... fashion.

If three rounds into the combat the player chooses to Delay, I'd plug him/her in between the two.

This is how I understand initiative to be used, as [MENTION=40109]Vegepygmy[/MENTION] has stated.

 

[Water Bob]

This is how I understand initiative to be used, as @Vegepygmy has stated.

[MENTION=40109]Vegepygmy[/MENTION] said that a character could delay to be in between two characters with the same count. That's not true unless the character's total initiative modifier is lower than one and higher than the other (or gets lucky on dice if the modifier is the same for all three).

Thus, the main PC rolls 17.

PC A and PC B roll 11.

PC C rolls 10.

PC D rolls 9.



Thus, the rules that the main PC can delay to 11, but then you have to reslove the three-way tie by comparing initiative modifiers (or rolling dice should all three have the same modifier total).

The only way the main PC is going to get between PC A and PC B is if he fits those requirements--that his initiative modifier is lower than one of them and higher than the other.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The only way the main PC is going to get between PC A and PC B is if he fits those requirements--that his initiative modifier is lower than one of them and higher than the other.

By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

Main PC: (on his turn) "I delay."
PC A: (acts on his turn)
Main PC: "I act now."
Main PC: (takes his turn, fixes his new initiative count at this point)
PC B: (acts on his turn)