Can free actions be used as interrupts?

[Samir]

As far as I can tell, this is flatly untrue. If there are actual rules or FAQ statements that would back this up, please provide them. Asking specifically for ones that would back up it working after 'the hit has been made'.

Opportunity Actions don't spell out anywhere that they can invalidate actions that they interrupt, and yet they do--a Fighter hitting a charging enemy with an OA, for example, forcing the enemy to stop in its tracks and invalidating the charge.

I think it's logical to assume that free actions are capable of invalidating actions in the same way.

 

[keterys]

Just in case it was unclear, I'll reiterate: "If there are actual rules or FAQ statements that would back this up, please provide them."

Then you have to explain why Free Actions like Elven Accuracy work. Elven Accuracy is invoked AFTER a to-hit roll, it is a Free Action with NO trigger, and it replaces the already made roll with a new roll which can then obviously alter the result of an already-determined miss. Its pretty ironclad actually.

Easy - it works because it says it does. It has actual specific text allowing it to work.

Force Push does not - it just pushes someone. Nothing about invalidating any action, whatsoever.

Especially one that has already concluded.

The other problem with the position that FAs don't work like IIs is that you can't then explain a way that they DO work. What, I push the guy away and his weapon mysteriously grows longer and still hits me?

No, it already hit you. As you yourself said, 'the hit has been made'. So, he hits you, and you push him back.

All sorts of problems arise with different power interactions as soon as you try to work through it that way. Just because Immediate Interrupts STATE that they can invalidate an action has no bearing AT ALL on what other types of powers can or cannot do.

Exactly the point. Which is why those other powers should state when they specifically do, and the rest is up to the DM.

Opportunity Actions don't spell out anywhere that they can invalidate actions that they interrupt, and yet they do--a Fighter hitting a charging enemy with an OA, for example, forcing the enemy to stop in its tracks and invalidating the charge.

Actually, they do:
Opportunity Attack: "After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying."
Combat Superiority: "An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack. If it still has actions remaining, it can use them to resume moving."

I think it's logical to assume that free actions are capable of invalidating actions in the same way.

Sure, there's a certain amount of logic there. But they're still not interrupts, meaning they don't roll time back to before something just happened. Once you've hit the target, it can't free action push you back out of range. You already hit.

 

[Samir]

Actually, they do:
Opportunity Attack: "After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying."
Combat Superiority: "An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the attack. If it still has actions remaining, it can use them to resume moving."

This doesn't have any bearing about what happens if the OA doesn't knock the target to 0 hit points. Combat Superiority forces the target to stop moving, but a charge isn't just a move--it's a move and an attack. "After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action." So the target still has an MBA to make--does he get to make it? Why not? Opportunity Actions can't invalidate actions without killing the target, per RAW.

Now let's say the Fighter has Heavy Blade Opportunity and Footwork Lure (at-will, attack, shift 1, slide target into square you left). Say an enemy adjacent to the Fighter makes a ranged attack with Range 5 against an ally of yours 5 squares away from it. The Fighter gets an OA, and uses Footwork Lure (thanks to HBO), choosing to shift and slide the enemy 1 square, putting the ally just out of range of the attack. Does he still get his attack?

 

[webrunner]

My two cents is that a free action can occur at any time, but they can't happen before something that has already happened (although they can affect something that has already happened, for example, causing a reroll itself turns back time)

So you can have your push after the enemy finishes his move action and before he attacks.

Or you can have your push after the enemy targets you but before he rolls.

Or you can have the push between when he rolls and when he's said to have 'hit' you.

But once he's hit you, if you try to push him, then he's already hit you and you take damage.

 

[Herschel]

Unless it specifically says it can, free actions do not interrupt an action. In one of the examples used, the character is already "hit" and the attack and damage is essentially one action unless a power SPECIFICALLY says it can interrupt the completion of the attack.

 

[kerbarian]

A brief note - my friend (who'll probably be by the thread tonight) checked with Trevor, WotC's community guy, and I understand that the official word is "you push them away, and they can advance again if they still have movement left." That seems both rules consistent and a good ruling - it gives options to the player without hosing the foe.

Yeah, I think that's a good way to handle it for movement. The case where it's messy, though, is when the power is used in response to an attack being declared. A monster tries to make a melee attack and then the Psion slides it out of reach. Does that prevent the attack? If so, can the monster change targets or do something else with its action?

 

[keterys]

Yeah, I think that's a good way to handle it for movement. The case where it's messy, though, is when the power is used in response to an attack being declared. A monster tries to make a melee attack and then the Psion slides it out of reach. Does that prevent the attack? If so, can the monster change targets or do something else with its action?

Yeah, that's definitely the murky case. 'Okay, guess he'll try to claw you (presumably, chooses a power, gets to the target line, not yet at the roll line)' 'Okay, I force push him away'

I suspect it's a case where the DM and players should come to a decision on how they feel on that kind of thing and move on, for the moment. Long term, force push has a topic on the wotc errata boards for just this reason, so it will likely at least get an FAQ answer.

 

[DracoSuave]

This doesn't have any bearing about what happens if the OA doesn't knock the target to 0 hit points. Combat Superiority forces the target to stop moving, but a charge isn't just a move--it's a move and an attack. "After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action." So the target still has an MBA to make--does he get to make it? Why not? Opportunity Actions can't invalidate actions without killing the target, per RAW.

Except the target of the attack is now out of range. If you had used an immediate reaction to prevent his movement, it would have the same result. As it is impossible to charge into the nearest square towards that enemy, the charge becomes illegal, and the action is discontinued. It is not invalidated, however--you still got to move.

Charges are actually pretty explicit about that... you -must- move to a specific square(or squares), calling out a specific enemy, and move in a specific manner. If you're rendered unable to do these things, charge itself tells you the charge is illegal. Charge is not 'move and attack in the same action' its 'move adjacent to a specific dude, to a specific spot adjacent to that specific dude, and then attack that specific dude.'

Now let's say the Fighter has Heavy Blade Opportunity and Footwork Lure (at-will, attack, shift 1, slide target into square you left). Say an enemy adjacent to the Fighter makes a ranged attack with Range 5 against an ally of yours 5 squares away from it. The Fighter gets an OA, and uses Footwork Lure (thanks to HBO), choosing to shift and slide the enemy 1 square, putting the ally just out of range of the attack. Does he still get his attack?

No, because the target is out of range before the attack roll and damage can occur.

 

[Samir]

My two cents is that a free action can occur at any time, but they can't happen before something that has already happened (although they can affect something that has already happened, for example, causing a reroll itself turns back time)

So you can have your push after the enemy finishes his move action and before he attacks.

Or you can have your push after the enemy targets you but before he rolls.

Or you can have the push between when he rolls and when he's said to have 'hit' you.

But once he's hit you, if you try to push him, then he's already hit you and you take damage.

I agree with this logic.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Except the target of the attack is now out of range. If you had used an immediate reaction to prevent his movement, it would have the same result. As it is impossible to charge into the nearest square towards that enemy, the charge becomes illegal, and the action is discontinued. It is not invalidated, however--you still got to move.

Charges are actually pretty explicit about that... you -must- move to a specific square(or squares), calling out a specific enemy, and move in a specific manner. If you're rendered unable to do these things, charge itself tells you the charge is illegal. Charge is not 'move and attack in the same action' its 'move adjacent to a specific dude, to a specific spot adjacent to that specific dude, and then attack that specific dude.'

I don't think we really want to go down the path of getting into this argument. Suffice it to say that the rules say no such thing. Exactly what bearing that has on the argument at hand though is hard to say. It is quite possible that a charge COULD become impossible to complete, in which case the attack portion of the charge might never take place. That is a bit different situation.

No, because the target is out of range before the attack roll and damage can occur.

Remember, attack resolution happens in a number of steps. A Free Action (or an interrupt for that matter) can be declared at any point along the way. In the case of an interrupt CLEARLY the interrupt can modify at least the step which triggers it even though that step has been executed (IE Shield triggering on a hit and turning it into a miss).

There are really TWO questions with Free Actions. The first is can it interject into another action, and that is clearly answered yes both by the example of Elven Accuracy, AND by the example of warden marking. The second question is whether or not such an interjection can change the result of a step in the resolution of the action it is interjected into. Elven Accuracy again show that this can be the case as it can turn a miss into a hit (or vice versa technically).

Thus the case of pushing an enemy away with a Free Action declared when the attack resolution step 4 is happening would appear to operate identically with Elven Accuracy, changing the conditions of the attack and in this case making it no longer valid (assuming the push puts the attacker out of range of the target). Damage is not dealt until step 5 and we have AMPLE evidence that effects of all sorts can modify the results of attacks even after hit determination.

The example of fighter's CC is not relevant because the 'stops movement' effect is an explicit effect and there would be no basis for it happening at all were the text not there. Of course CC states that a hit causes the enemy to stop moving, that's the whole point of the feature and has nothing to do with its immediacy.

Yes, IMMEDIATE interrupts state clearly that they can invalidate actions. This doesn't in any way tell us that other things cannot do so as well. Interrupts would actually be pretty much pointless if they could NOT do so. This is their reason for existing, so naturally its a significant point that is mentioned.

Now, notice the parallel statement in the Opportunity Action rules block. It never mentions invalidation at all, yet again this is clearly the way the game is played and many other rulings assume this is true. This alone demonstrates that not every section of the rules explicitly spells out every possible consequence of its application.

Beyond that there is a difference between immediate interrupts and immediate reactions which requires careful explication. This is another reason why the immediate actions section goes into the most detail about this topic, because it is making a fairly subtle but important distinction.

Free Actions OTOH don't need to make any such distinctions, they all simply work the same way (there is certainly no evidence that there are differences between them). Given that we have a clear example of one Free Action which clearly behaves in a way identical with interrupts there is simply no other consistent way to interpret the rules except that they all work that way. Given that it creates no (more) rules issues than interrupts do already and avoids a whole class of ugly problems one must ask why it would be desirable to treat Free Actions in an inconsistent manner.

It would actually be interesting to see what one of the devs would have to say about this conversation. Unfortunately the quote of Trevor didn't really address it as he seems to be assuming a context where the enemy is moving. Even an Immediate Interrupt push would work the same way in that case, so we actually learned nothing that bears on the use of a Free Action during an attack.