D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

[Mephista]

(delete!)

 

[billd91]

Where is this related to real life gods again? Seems to me that changes are made to the gods to fit them into the default cosmology and setting, not the other way around. So, I say it again. Real life gods are not the same as D&D gods.

Sure, they are. Check out the various editions of Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore. Check out Appendix B of the 5e Players Handbook. Real world gods have always cropped up in D&D - with the encouragement of the designers. The fact that there's some adaptation doesn't mean that they aren't fundamentally representing the same ideas, even the same personalities (depending on how faithful the DM wants to be to which of many conflicting sources he chooses to represent that god). Back in the 1e Deities and Demigods, the writers made it pretty clear that the Greek gods exhibit not just the virtues but also the vices of humanity.

And though the example of Pelor may not be fitting, the Greyhawk lore suggesting he's more a pacifist than many other deities, chaotic good Trithereon is also the god of retribution and that's not your typical goody-goody spin on justice. The personality of the individual god you want to depict, whether from historical mythology or from a completely made up one, will matter a lot more than any sort of D&D-based guideline.

 

[billd91]

That's like saying that researching forbidden occult lore in Call of Cthulhu isn't dark, evil, and won't drive you criminally insane (hint: it does). Warlocks are also constantly characterized by a thirst for power. A look at the spell list shows exactly what kind of power they get - offensive damage spells, mental manipulation, curses, and darkness.

While that's not evil, as D&D defines it, it is definitely on the darker side of magic.

You write as if any of these things straight-jacketed the warlock character into a certain type. While I may like the darker warlock, it's not the only way to approach the class. Not all Old Ones or intelligences From Beyond need to be based on Lovecraft. Not all warlocks need to have a thirst for power. And not all offensive, manipulating, curse-based, or darkness-based need to be evil. Otherwise, wizards would pretty much be in the same boat.

 

[sidonunspa]

Harry learned to cast Very powerful frost spells and is unaffected by extreme cold, and heals faster then normal... The 'turning off pain receptors' was all part of the package.

False life at will anyone?

 

[Ahrimon]

I'm firmly in the camp that warlocks can be any alignment and can have any source of power that they want. Someone wants to make a pact with an angel of retribution and use the fiendish package more power to them. There is nothing against it in either the rules or the fluff. Some folks just find their interpretation of the fluff and cling to it like it's their own personal gospel and any deviation from that is badwrongfun. Seeing some of the posters cling to the way they read (way too much) into the fluff is both sad and humorous. Reading this thread I can just picture someone sitting in a corner clutching their PHB mumbling about pelor's write up and how it must be as they see it. Even in DnD's structured alignment and deity system there are multiple points of view and various shades of good.

This whole argument reminds me why I love 4e's alignment system so much more. Not to mention it's treatment of angels less as shining things of virtue and more as the soldiers in a deities army and instruments of their will. It reminds me of a quote from movie Prophecy:

Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?

And I think this one is an excellent example of a celestial warlock:

Some people lose their faith because Heaven shows them too little. But how many people lose their faith because Heaven showed them too much?

 

[Ahrimon]

I'd also like to re-iterate that nothing about the warlock says that you have to sell your soul regardless of the pact source you choose. It could simply be access to a power source for a favor that you've already completed. Remember the starting warlock makes his pact at or prior to lvl 1. And regardless of the views that warlocks simply make a bargain and get lots of power there isn't anything in the book that says a warlock doesn't have to train for their magic as much as a wizard or sorcerer does. A warlocks bargain could simply be for access and they have to develop those abilities just like any other class. It could also be a family pact. What if great-great-granddad made the deal and every 3rd son inherits the power? You still have to develop it like anyone else. In many cases a Warlock and a Sorcerer could be very similar. Both inherited gifts that have to be developed. The only difference would be that one is naturally in the bloodline the other is infused into the bloodline. Even a fiendish pact warlock could inherit their powers and out pious the cleric and paladin. These backstories aren't hard to put together if you are willing to look at things beyond a narrow self-defined scope.

 

[PnPgamer]

So... Who is this warlock called Tim? No wait, I mean Harry.

 

[Shasarak]

That's like saying that researching forbidden occult lore in Call of Cthulhu isn't dark, evil, and won't drive you criminally insane (hint: it does). Warlocks are also constantly characterized by a thirst for power. A look at the spell list shows exactly what kind of power they get - offensive damage spells, mental manipulation, curses, and darkness.

While that's not evil, as D&D defines it, it is definitely on the darker side of magic.

Blade pact relies on Hex and their 12 ability to deal necrotic damage. Tome is generalized, literally; it lets you get spells from anywhere. Chain has two fiends and two fey-like familiars. The fiends are definitely evil. So, being right once out of three isn't bad.

So, let me get this straight. Dominating and controlling people like the illithid do isn't evil? An ability designed to make you think you're insane or cast into another plane called "Dark Delirium" isn't dark? Granting spells that revolve around insanity and mind control isn't?

Eldritch blast is often accompanied by Hex, which is absolutely necrotic. Arms of Hadar is evoking beings beyond reality into this world, generally the same sort like the evil aboliths. Armor of Agathys calls upon a fiend.

Only if you ignore the spell list, which is dominated by necrotic damage, curses, excessive mind control, deception and inflicting madness, calling upon creatures of darkness, draining life energy, summoning undead, inflicting fear, and shadows/darkness in general.

Never mind that the class as a whole tends to name things in a negative light. "Agonizing Blast," "Hurl through Hell," "Dark Delirium," "Thrall," "Bewitching Whispers," "Fiendish Vigor," "Dreadful Word." The list goes on. The sheer weight of everything makes its clear that, even if we're not talking about being Evil here, its definitely on the dark side.

Yes, you can rename and reflavor everything at individual tables, but I prefer to discuss just the default class, and there are any number of things in the class that are troubling to a Good being.

And that's a large part of the attraction of the class. That whole dark, troubling edge to them, struggling to do one thing, while temptations to do others are abound.

Charm and Domination have never been intrinsically "Evil" in DnD, the same as researching forbidden occult lore has never caused "Sanity" loss or criminal behaviour in DnD. The same as causing confusion, insanity and even "Feeblemindness" is not "Evil" and even polymorphing creatures into ants and squishing them is not "Evil".

It could be good house rules but not as standard DnD though.

 

[Klaus]

For an example of good-aligned Infernal warlock, I point to one of my favorite TV Shows Cancelled Too Soon: Brimstone.

In it, 113 evil souls escape Hell. In order to catch them, the Devil called upon Zeke Stone, a deceased NY cop who killed his wife's murderer (and subsequently died and went to Hell). If Stone manages to catch all 113 escapees, he'll be off the hook.

 

[SirAntoine]

I'd say you have to be evil, beyond any doubt. The class is more evil than the assassin or the necromancer, as written.